Cedar Point | Valravn | B&M Dive Machine
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CarolinaRider
Mega Poster
Thank you. I didn't know how to word the post, but some of you are thinking WAY too hard about this. :roll:steel said:
SaiyanHajime
CF Legend
Dear Santa, here's 2 very simple thing's I'd like for Christmas this year:
- New kids who turn up at my nerdy place for the past 10 years to stop telling me how to enjoy my hobby.
- Cedar Point to get a good ride.
Merry Christmas everyone.
- New kids who turn up at my nerdy place for the past 10 years to stop telling me how to enjoy my hobby.
- Cedar Point to get a good ride.
Merry Christmas everyone.
CarolinaRider
Mega Poster
You act like you're speaking for everyone though. Valravn may not be the best choice for a park like Cedar Point, but you act like people are just going to fall asleep halfway through first drop because it's just sooo forceless and boring. There are people who are legitimately excited about this ride. It's going to be a sizeable addition and people are going to travel to ride it along with the other 16 coasters the park has. Just about 99% of the people visiting the park don't have the mindset of "Oh my God, if this ride doesn't try to murder me in the most extreme way possible, it's going to be a flop and the park should tear it down." People are going to ride it and enjoy it because it's a giant steel coaster with two vertical drops. And the park won't care if the hundreds of jaded enthusiasts complain about it because it's not Maverick or Dragster or Millennium. It's going to be a tall, fast, smooth, and enjoyable ride and even with four other coasters at 200 feet tall in the park, it's probably going to scare the crap out of a few people. People will ride it and enjoy it. No matter how intense the coaster is, shouldn't that be every park's ultimate goal regardless of reputation?Joey said:
owentaylor121
Giga Poster
Re: Cedar Point | Valravn | B&M Dive Machine
Thank you.
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Don't class me as a new kid when I've been on this site for 5 years.Joey said:
Thank you.
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nealbie
CF Legend
In all fairness, let's be thankful that Cedar Point are building a large B&M Dive Machine as a +1 and not a small kiddy cred in their ongoing effort to keep up with Magic Mountain for the most coasters record.
Yes, some will bemoan the lack of originality and some will love it to pieces for the epic airtime on the drop. But I for one would much rather be riding drop>immelman>turn>brakerun model number 534 than another bloody roller skater.
People are different. Merry Christmas.
Yes, some will bemoan the lack of originality and some will love it to pieces for the epic airtime on the drop. But I for one would much rather be riding drop>immelman>turn>brakerun model number 534 than another bloody roller skater.
People are different. Merry Christmas.
SaiyanHajime
CF Legend
Re: Cedar Point | Valravn | B&M Dive Machine
No, no, no, no, no. Stop. CarolinaRider, you mocked me for being too negative and thinking too hard, so I shot that back at you, so don't now claim your issue is that I come across like I'm speaking for everyone. You clearly do have content to add - you have an opinion, you have worthwhile stuff to say, so say it. I don't have an issue with you disagreeing with me, why would I? I just cannot stand people who play that "you're thinking too hard about this" crap. Don't do it - it's rude, and you're on a roller coaster discussion forum, we discuss coasters. If my discussion is too in depth for you, that's cool! Just ignore me. Simple. You enjoy coasters your way, meanwhile, I'll write essays worth of criticism of CP's new dive machine, because I find that fun. OK? OK, good.
...I don't believe I'm speaking for everyone, sorry if it comes across that wat. Yes, I'm saying that I believe that it is a fallacy that the "public will love this", but that's MY opinion, my opinion backed up by reasoning and thought which I have taken time to explain. It's clear that your response that you haven't actually read my posts, because I'm not arguing much of what you think I am. I'm not repeating myself again right now, because I'm not in the mood, and rhisnis for fun, and I'll do what I want
and I'll save y'all the essay, but what I will say in response to your ending comment - what's the point on any design if we just go around thinking "eh, its good enough." No, not good enough. Strive to be awesome, not adequate!
No, no, no, no, no. Stop. CarolinaRider, you mocked me for being too negative and thinking too hard, so I shot that back at you, so don't now claim your issue is that I come across like I'm speaking for everyone. You clearly do have content to add - you have an opinion, you have worthwhile stuff to say, so say it. I don't have an issue with you disagreeing with me, why would I? I just cannot stand people who play that "you're thinking too hard about this" crap. Don't do it - it's rude, and you're on a roller coaster discussion forum, we discuss coasters. If my discussion is too in depth for you, that's cool! Just ignore me. Simple. You enjoy coasters your way, meanwhile, I'll write essays worth of criticism of CP's new dive machine, because I find that fun. OK? OK, good.
...I don't believe I'm speaking for everyone, sorry if it comes across that wat. Yes, I'm saying that I believe that it is a fallacy that the "public will love this", but that's MY opinion, my opinion backed up by reasoning and thought which I have taken time to explain. It's clear that your response that you haven't actually read my posts, because I'm not arguing much of what you think I am. I'm not repeating myself again right now, because I'm not in the mood, and rhisnis for fun, and I'll do what I want
and I'll save y'all the essay, but what I will say in response to your ending comment - what's the point on any design if we just go around thinking "eh, its good enough." No, not good enough. Strive to be awesome, not adequate!Superbatboy
Roller Poster
I think the biggest question mark regarding Valravn in my mind is why at CP? CP got the only roller coaster addition for 2016 in the entire chain, yet Valravn would've made more sense at just about any other CF park.
I mean, I don't ever see a park like MIA getting a dive machine but what about Dorney, KD, WoF, or Valleyfair? Even KI or CW could've used this ride.
I'm just wondering why it seems as if Cedar Fair wants nothing to do with RMC. Their main competitor Six Flags has installed a handful of them and they've all gotten positive reviews. An iron horsed Mean Streak would've been the perfect addition at CP
I mean, I don't ever see a park like MIA getting a dive machine but what about Dorney, KD, WoF, or Valleyfair? Even KI or CW could've used this ride.
I'm just wondering why it seems as if Cedar Fair wants nothing to do with RMC. Their main competitor Six Flags has installed a handful of them and they've all gotten positive reviews. An iron horsed Mean Streak would've been the perfect addition at CP
BigBad
Mega Poster
I have a couple of thoughts on why they've not yet RMCed Mean Streak.
1. Then Blue Streak is their only wood coaster. Most premier parks have a big wood coaster.
2. Six Flags paid to have RMC keep away from Cedar Fair for a while.
As much as it seems like an odd choice, Valravn looks like it should be fun. Hardly world-class or a major reason to visit, but fun. I'm wondering what else they could have done, though, aside from an RMC or a quality wood coaster. (I'd like to seen an Intamin prefab in 2018 and then RMC Mean Streak for the 150th anniversary in 2020. I won't cry if they do Mean Streak sooner, but I've heard a few people---no one credible---suggest 2020 as an idea.)
Flying coaster: Doesn't get me excited.
Eurofighter/Infinity: Maybe not after The Smiler, though I really like this idea
Mega Lite: They avoid Intamin, it seems, and aren't mega lites more for parks that can't afford to have a hyper and a giga and a strata?
4D: GateKeeper already has the wing design.
If they're not going to work with RMC and they don't want to build a wood coaster in anticipation of making Mean Streak into a hybrid, then what else would they do (not rhetorical)? They have most of the other types of big coasters!
1. Then Blue Streak is their only wood coaster. Most premier parks have a big wood coaster.
2. Six Flags paid to have RMC keep away from Cedar Fair for a while.
As much as it seems like an odd choice, Valravn looks like it should be fun. Hardly world-class or a major reason to visit, but fun. I'm wondering what else they could have done, though, aside from an RMC or a quality wood coaster. (I'd like to seen an Intamin prefab in 2018 and then RMC Mean Streak for the 150th anniversary in 2020. I won't cry if they do Mean Streak sooner, but I've heard a few people---no one credible---suggest 2020 as an idea.)
Flying coaster: Doesn't get me excited.
Eurofighter/Infinity: Maybe not after The Smiler, though I really like this idea
Mega Lite: They avoid Intamin, it seems, and aren't mega lites more for parks that can't afford to have a hyper and a giga and a strata?
4D: GateKeeper already has the wing design.
If they're not going to work with RMC and they don't want to build a wood coaster in anticipation of making Mean Streak into a hybrid, then what else would they do (not rhetorical)? They have most of the other types of big coasters!
SaiyanHajime
CF Legend
Re: Cedar Point | Valravn | B&M Dive Machine
Re "what else could they have gotten" ... well, anything.
Why not another invert? Why not another mega, or giga? Why not another launching coaster, this time from b&m? Why not another sit down?
The "they've already got that" argument only applies when the experiences or key selling point isn't different. If they got a Nemesis clone, just for arguments sake, it would be more different to Raptor than Valravn is in experience to Gatekeeper, without the bells and whistles... My issue with Valravn being boring is that it is conceptually and physically so similar to other park experiences, where other ride types that they already have can be very different coaster to coaster.
They could have got anything in B&M's lineup, the only thing that I don't think would have been a better idea is a mega...
Re "what else could they have gotten" ... well, anything.
Why not another invert? Why not another mega, or giga? Why not another launching coaster, this time from b&m? Why not another sit down?
The "they've already got that" argument only applies when the experiences or key selling point isn't different. If they got a Nemesis clone, just for arguments sake, it would be more different to Raptor than Valravn is in experience to Gatekeeper, without the bells and whistles... My issue with Valravn being boring is that it is conceptually and physically so similar to other park experiences, where other ride types that they already have can be very different coaster to coaster.
They could have got anything in B&M's lineup, the only thing that I don't think would have been a better idea is a mega...
GuyWithAStick
Captain Basic
^I agree 100%.
For example, SFNE has 2 boomerangs(and an SLC if you count that). SFGAm almost got 2 standups(well, for a year, at least. And who knows what could've happened to Chang if it ended up at GAm?). Universal Orlando has almost the same dark ride with Spiderman and Transformers(yes, one's at IOA, but they're the same company on the same property). Europa Park has 2 water coasters and 2 powered coasters. Heck, even racing coasters count. Yes, it's another gimmick to race another train, but the bottom line is that there are 2 of(almost) the same ride right next to each other! If any park can get away with cloning/getting the same model of a ride of their own, why can't Cedar Point?
For example, SFNE has 2 boomerangs(and an SLC if you count that). SFGAm almost got 2 standups(well, for a year, at least. And who knows what could've happened to Chang if it ended up at GAm?). Universal Orlando has almost the same dark ride with Spiderman and Transformers(yes, one's at IOA, but they're the same company on the same property). Europa Park has 2 water coasters and 2 powered coasters. Heck, even racing coasters count. Yes, it's another gimmick to race another train, but the bottom line is that there are 2 of(almost) the same ride right next to each other! If any park can get away with cloning/getting the same model of a ride of their own, why can't Cedar Point?
GuyWithAStick
Captain Basic
^IOA has Dragon Challenge. 2 completely different B&M inverts. Your argument could be stronger saying they were meant to be together, but they don't duel anymore. They might as well close 1 side to save maintenance costs. They're 2 different coasters now.
For some more evidence of parks liking to redo itself, SFGAdv has Batman, Bizzaro, and even Green Lantern are all B&M Multiloopers. You can even argue that SFGAdv has El Toro and Nirto, both big coasters with airtime hills and intense turns(not as much on Nitro, though). Both Canada's Wonderland and Carowinds have B&M Hypers(by classification). Wiener Prater has 4 spinning coasters, and 2 wild mice. And Cedar Point here is about to have 2 B&M floorless coasters. The only reason they're all different is their marketing point. SFNE's boomerangs, one's inverted, one's not. For Spiderman and Transformers, one's themed to Marvel and has better screen-set interaction, the other to an action franchise with cool effects.
For some more evidence of parks liking to redo itself, SFGAdv has Batman, Bizzaro, and even Green Lantern are all B&M Multiloopers. You can even argue that SFGAdv has El Toro and Nirto, both big coasters with airtime hills and intense turns(not as much on Nitro, though). Both Canada's Wonderland and Carowinds have B&M Hypers(by classification). Wiener Prater has 4 spinning coasters, and 2 wild mice. And Cedar Point here is about to have 2 B&M floorless coasters. The only reason they're all different is their marketing point. SFNE's boomerangs, one's inverted, one's not. For Spiderman and Transformers, one's themed to Marvel and has better screen-set interaction, the other to an action franchise with cool effects.
SaiyanHajime
CF Legend
Re: Cedar Point | Valravn | B&M Dive Machine
Yeah, CW and Carowinds are the real example setters here. When they announced that, I criticised it, but they seem successful and after riding I'd say are different enough in experience, especially Fury. My concern with those is where does that leave Behemoth and Intimidator? I'm still a bit, well guests see Leviathanas a better Behemoth, surely? So why bother with Behemoth?
But, if it was two of the same that look really different in layout and feel really different, I'd have no qualms... But no one really has tried it. Why? Well, it's a bullpoo game of marketable stats isn't it. They, like a lot parks, think that unless they can boast some stat no one cares. In reality, a quality ride would spread through the grapevine and keep people coming for decades. A quality marketing campaign with some creativity will get people coming to the park regardless of content. Again I point fingers to Smiler, who's campaign uttered no stats or impressive worlds firsts, in spite of the ride having them.
Yeah, CW and Carowinds are the real example setters here. When they announced that, I criticised it, but they seem successful and after riding I'd say are different enough in experience, especially Fury. My concern with those is where does that leave Behemoth and Intimidator? I'm still a bit, well guests see Leviathanas a better Behemoth, surely? So why bother with Behemoth?
But, if it was two of the same that look really different in layout and feel really different, I'd have no qualms... But no one really has tried it. Why? Well, it's a bullpoo game of marketable stats isn't it. They, like a lot parks, think that unless they can boast some stat no one cares. In reality, a quality ride would spread through the grapevine and keep people coming for decades. A quality marketing campaign with some creativity will get people coming to the park regardless of content. Again I point fingers to Smiler, who's campaign uttered no stats or impressive worlds firsts, in spite of the ride having them.
CarolinaRider
Mega Poster
I think you guys have neglected that most major amusement parks have two or more wooden coasters.
Lofty
CF Legend
I'm struggling to understand how Valravyn is the same as Gatekeeper? Yes, it has inversions, as does Rougarou and Raptor, but that's fort of where the similarities end?!
At the end of the day, the park's operational, financial and creative teams know what will work in their park better than any of us, just because you're an enthusiast doesn't mean you know more than them - that mentality is beyond ridiculous and becoming pathetic on this site especially.
At the end of the day, the park's operational, financial and creative teams know what will work in their park better than any of us, just because you're an enthusiast doesn't mean you know more than them - that mentality is beyond ridiculous and becoming pathetic on this site especially.
andrus
Giga Poster
Who's negative? Next year will be a fantastic one with four(!) possible new top 10 rides in Wildfire, Taron, Lightning Rod and Flying Aces :--D I can't remember the last time that happend? Add to that several other Intamin, GG and GCI's in China plus some substantial additions in both Europe and the US and it will be an amazing year coaster wise!!steel said:
However Valravn is definitely not on that list, and this is a roller coaster forum where we discuss both good and bad additions. Don't come and call med negative or jaded because I find one ride a poor addition. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Let's keep it to opinions and not personal insults, thank you!