Do You Support American Gun Rights?
- Thread starter cjbrandy
- Start date
MouseAT
Hyper Poster
Firearm ownership in the USA seems to be a really weird and complex issue. I can understand the logic behind the second amendment, although actual democracy seems to have been subverted pretty spectacularly despite the right to bear arms. For everyone with a sensible, pragmatic take on the issue, there seems to be an irrational nut job. It doesn't help that the letter of the law can be completely irrational.
Want to own a gun? Sure, go right ahead. Want a less-lethal taser instead so that you can protect yourself without killing your attacker? No you can't have one - they're not constitutionally protected. Want a personal flame thrower, just because? Yeah, go on then, there's no law stopping you.
I'm not seeing much in the way of "well regulated militias" either amongst the general populace either, but maybe that's just me.
The problem is I can't see a straightforward way to solve the problems created by widespread gun ownership. A simple ban may create more problems than it solves, as the bad guys have had years of easy access to firearms, so unilaterally disarming the rest of the populace is probably a really bad idea. That ship sailed a long time ago. The focus therefore really needs to shift towards keeping firearms out of the hands of the dangerous members of society. Firearms licences and registration would be a logical place to start. There's a big difference between a trained, experienced gun enthusiast who knows how to handle a firearm safely and the risks of not doing so, as opposed to the casual man or woman on the street who buys a gun for self defence but has never demonstrated their ability to use one correctly. The former at least knows what to do, what not to do, and has some understanding of the consequences of their actions. The fact that the latter group can legally own a firearm is terrifying.
At least if you can guarantee that every legal firearm owner has some level of mandatory training and periodic recertification then you've got some opportunity to at least try and identify some of the bad actors before they become a problem.
Want to own a gun? Sure, go right ahead. Want a less-lethal taser instead so that you can protect yourself without killing your attacker? No you can't have one - they're not constitutionally protected. Want a personal flame thrower, just because? Yeah, go on then, there's no law stopping you.
I'm not seeing much in the way of "well regulated militias" either amongst the general populace either, but maybe that's just me.
The problem is I can't see a straightforward way to solve the problems created by widespread gun ownership. A simple ban may create more problems than it solves, as the bad guys have had years of easy access to firearms, so unilaterally disarming the rest of the populace is probably a really bad idea. That ship sailed a long time ago. The focus therefore really needs to shift towards keeping firearms out of the hands of the dangerous members of society. Firearms licences and registration would be a logical place to start. There's a big difference between a trained, experienced gun enthusiast who knows how to handle a firearm safely and the risks of not doing so, as opposed to the casual man or woman on the street who buys a gun for self defence but has never demonstrated their ability to use one correctly. The former at least knows what to do, what not to do, and has some understanding of the consequences of their actions. The fact that the latter group can legally own a firearm is terrifying.
At least if you can guarantee that every legal firearm owner has some level of mandatory training and periodic recertification then you've got some opportunity to at least try and identify some of the bad actors before they become a problem.
Xpress
Strata Poster
Against any form of legislation 100%. Firearms legislation works much in the same way meth is totally illegal, yet its use is popular as ever still. Make as many laws as you want against mass shooting (which, by the way, are already illegal), doesn't mean it's going to stop someone who's off their meds from acquiring a firearm and going on a shooting spree. The ONLY reason you read about it is our lovely medias fetish with making famous the lunatics that have targets on everyone elses heads. They never report all of the stories of firearm owners that actually stop mass shootings, because it doesn't fit their agenda.
I live in one of only a handful of very liberal states in the US, yet more people here own firearms than those who do not. California is a very conservative state by its mass- when you factor in the population in the San Diego, Los Angeles, San Francisco, and Sacramento areas, it suddenly becomes a very liberal state. We have more people owning firearms in the States now more than ever- liberals and democrats are very good firearms salesmen.
But the fact remains, you're almost 30x more likely to die in the comfort of your own car, and infinitely more times likely to die by the hand of your own idiot doctor, than you are to die by bullet. But no, firearms are the problem. :roll:
I live in one of only a handful of very liberal states in the US, yet more people here own firearms than those who do not. California is a very conservative state by its mass- when you factor in the population in the San Diego, Los Angeles, San Francisco, and Sacramento areas, it suddenly becomes a very liberal state. We have more people owning firearms in the States now more than ever- liberals and democrats are very good firearms salesmen.
But the fact remains, you're almost 30x more likely to die in the comfort of your own car, and infinitely more times likely to die by the hand of your own idiot doctor, than you are to die by bullet. But no, firearms are the problem. :roll:
davidm
Strata Poster
^ that 30x stat you just posted interested me, so I Googled it.
What I found (by no means deep-research into this!)
Source : http://www.mystatesman.com/news/news/lo ... n-c/npDBy/
(and I have checked no further than that)
I would pretty much bet that if America removed all vehicles from the road then the no. of car-deaths would come down dramatically (alongwith a reasonable impact on the modern way of life and the US-economy). If guns were removed from the US then the way-of-life that would be impacted would be minor I think (legitimate hunters perhaps?) and the affected economy would be those that profit from firearms in some way (aka the gun lobby). Additionally, if you removed all doctors and hospitals from the country, then you would have zero "idiot doctor" deaths, probably significantly more deaths-from-natural-causes and the like (and yes I realise all this is a stupid argument - which is the point.)
What I found (by no means deep-research into this!)
Source : http://www.mystatesman.com/news/news/lo ... n-c/npDBy/
(and I have checked no further than that)
I would pretty much bet that if America removed all vehicles from the road then the no. of car-deaths would come down dramatically (alongwith a reasonable impact on the modern way of life and the US-economy). If guns were removed from the US then the way-of-life that would be impacted would be minor I think (legitimate hunters perhaps?) and the affected economy would be those that profit from firearms in some way (aka the gun lobby). Additionally, if you removed all doctors and hospitals from the country, then you would have zero "idiot doctor" deaths, probably significantly more deaths-from-natural-causes and the like (and yes I realise all this is a stupid argument - which is the point.)
So it's a choice of bury your head in the sand and ignore it, or try to tackle it - but why bother trying to tackle it "it's too hard"?
It isn't. Restrict the number of firearms and deadliness of firearms available to the public and the deaths will come down.
I can't help you with your meth problems.
As for "gun owners stopping mass killings".
You may be able to find 2 dozen cases in the last 20 years where a gun carrying member of the public has stopped a mass killing.
That's compared to just under 1,000 mass shootings in the last TWO years.
Damn it, I feel so much safer now! Surround me with your guns!!!!
You may be 30 times more likely to die in your car than by a gunshot, but wouldn't it be better if everyone had that raised to 60 times? 100 times? 2,000 times? Impossible to die by a gun?
No, it won't be easy, but almost 400 deaths and 1,000 injuries a year have to say "let's try?"
It isn't. Restrict the number of firearms and deadliness of firearms available to the public and the deaths will come down.
I can't help you with your meth problems.
As for "gun owners stopping mass killings".
You may be able to find 2 dozen cases in the last 20 years where a gun carrying member of the public has stopped a mass killing.
That's compared to just under 1,000 mass shootings in the last TWO years.
Damn it, I feel so much safer now! Surround me with your guns!!!!
You may be 30 times more likely to die in your car than by a gunshot, but wouldn't it be better if everyone had that raised to 60 times? 100 times? 2,000 times? Impossible to die by a gun?
No, it won't be easy, but almost 400 deaths and 1,000 injuries a year have to say "let's try?"
Snoo
The Legend
Xpress, that seems to be the number 1 argument among Conservatives wanting loose gun regulations. Cars can kill people, obviously. Does that mean it's pointless to have speed limits and a drivers licenses and tickets? Of course not, because if you're not qualified to handle or operate a vehicle, you shouldn't have one or be behind the wheel.
Want to know the difference between guns and cars? Cars aren't meant to kill things, guns are. Yeah, **** is still going to happen, that's called the world, but that by no means we shouldn't have control over the device.
Now, don't blur your thoughts thinking "Snoo hates guns" as I have no problem with gun ownership. The fact that we are so loosey goosey and blame everything on the people and not the device still blows my mind.
Want to know the difference between guns and cars? Cars aren't meant to kill things, guns are. Yeah, **** is still going to happen, that's called the world, but that by no means we shouldn't have control over the device.
Now, don't blur your thoughts thinking "Snoo hates guns" as I have no problem with gun ownership. The fact that we are so loosey goosey and blame everything on the people and not the device still blows my mind.
Smithy
Strata Poster
Typical garbage retort the whole CARS KILL PEOPLE BAN CARS argument.
Aye, but a cars primary purpose of ownership isn't the capability to kill.
You know what though Xpress. You need a license to drive a car. And guess what. People still drive them without licenses. Shock horror.
So why aren't we all clamouring for the removal of driving licenses because even if you do restrict car usage to those with a license, people are still gonna drive them without? After all, they're just as dangerous as guns, aren't they
Nobody, absolutely nobody, is claiming that legislating against gun ownership is going to put a blanket stop on mass shootings. It's about reduction, but of course it's far easier to try and defend yourself from an imaginary argument than it is facing up to the mass of evidence that supports stronger legislation.
Aye, but a cars primary purpose of ownership isn't the capability to kill.
You know what though Xpress. You need a license to drive a car. And guess what. People still drive them without licenses. Shock horror.
So why aren't we all clamouring for the removal of driving licenses because even if you do restrict car usage to those with a license, people are still gonna drive them without? After all, they're just as dangerous as guns, aren't they
Nobody, absolutely nobody, is claiming that legislating against gun ownership is going to put a blanket stop on mass shootings. It's about reduction, but of course it's far easier to try and defend yourself from an imaginary argument than it is facing up to the mass of evidence that supports stronger legislation.
Xpress
Strata Poster
Well lets re-analyze that statistic from actual factual sources, not some liberal news media agency that has an agenda.
Total car accident deaths per year in 2013: 32,719
Total firearms related deaths in 2013 (including suicide, homicide, unintentional, and undetermined): 10.5 per 100,000
10.5 people per 100,000, with a population of 318.9 million people in the States- you do the math.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_m ... S._by_year
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... death_rate
If you want sources, Wiki lists them all at the bottom.
The United States is by no means a violent country by comparison to somewhere like Honduras. If you want defensive use of firearms, then google it. Mostly they're local stories, nothing would hit upon major headlines because again, the major media headlines are fully liberal with no intentions of supporting anything that goes against their precious obama.
The fact of the matter here is, people kill people. Doesn't matter the means of how the task was accomplished. Knife, gun, rock, car, hammer, screwdriver, pencil, whatever- ban all you want, it doesn't make a single difference. This is an issue of the heart and mind, not of an inanimate object. Mexico forbids guns entirely, you don't see many Americans running down there for safety because "The police will protect us!" Same thing foes for Australia.
Some other factoid, why are all major political parties protected with guns? Am I not allowed the same defensive practices because of the feeling and emotions of others?
I am not expecting a fire, yet I still own a fire extinguisher. I am not expecting someone to kick down my front door, but you can be damn sure I'm prepared for that to happen. Proclaim all you want to the liberal democratic parties, it's not changing what is actual fact, nor is it changing what I believe and know to be true.
And look, I'm not here to say you SHOULD own a gun- I really don't give a **** what you own, what party you stick to, what your thoughts on life, politics, and the universe are, nor am I going to tell you what you can or can't own or can or can't do in life. Don't tell me what I can or can't do or own in life. We don't need any of that **** around here especially since this is where we all go to blab about the latest and greatest in the amusement industry (or so I thought it was).
You bet your ass I'm a damn proud Patriot of my Country. Outlaw guns, then I guess I'll be an outlaw.
Total car accident deaths per year in 2013: 32,719
Total firearms related deaths in 2013 (including suicide, homicide, unintentional, and undetermined): 10.5 per 100,000
10.5 people per 100,000, with a population of 318.9 million people in the States- you do the math.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_m ... S._by_year
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... death_rate
If you want sources, Wiki lists them all at the bottom.
The United States is by no means a violent country by comparison to somewhere like Honduras. If you want defensive use of firearms, then google it. Mostly they're local stories, nothing would hit upon major headlines because again, the major media headlines are fully liberal with no intentions of supporting anything that goes against their precious obama.
The fact of the matter here is, people kill people. Doesn't matter the means of how the task was accomplished. Knife, gun, rock, car, hammer, screwdriver, pencil, whatever- ban all you want, it doesn't make a single difference. This is an issue of the heart and mind, not of an inanimate object. Mexico forbids guns entirely, you don't see many Americans running down there for safety because "The police will protect us!" Same thing foes for Australia.
Some other factoid, why are all major political parties protected with guns? Am I not allowed the same defensive practices because of the feeling and emotions of others?
I am not expecting a fire, yet I still own a fire extinguisher. I am not expecting someone to kick down my front door, but you can be damn sure I'm prepared for that to happen. Proclaim all you want to the liberal democratic parties, it's not changing what is actual fact, nor is it changing what I believe and know to be true.
And look, I'm not here to say you SHOULD own a gun- I really don't give a **** what you own, what party you stick to, what your thoughts on life, politics, and the universe are, nor am I going to tell you what you can or can't own or can or can't do in life. Don't tell me what I can or can't do or own in life. We don't need any of that **** around here especially since this is where we all go to blab about the latest and greatest in the amusement industry (or so I thought it was).
You bet your ass I'm a damn proud Patriot of my Country. Outlaw guns, then I guess I'll be an outlaw.
I assume you're here referring to David Morton's comment?
10.5 people in every 100,000, when your population is 318,900,000, is 33485 people.
Aren't you proving his point? I'm confused now...
Did you do the math?Xpress said:
10.5 people in every 100,000, when your population is 318,900,000, is 33485 people.
Aren't you proving his point? I'm confused now...
Chill Xpress and read my previous posts (and others).
Nobody is saying a blanket ban on guns. It's all about what is sensible. Do you need a sub machine gun to protect your property? No. Do you need one to commit mass murder? It really helps.
It's all about baby steps. Reduce numbers of highly deadly weapons that aren't needed first. Tighten controls - NOT BAN - and then move on from there. It's not black and white and reacting like it is doesn't help.
There's a problem with gun culture in the US. It doesn't affect any other First World, leading social and economic power - citing Honduras as being a country equivalent to the US is ludicrous. Would you like your economy, broadband infrastructure, pay per capita, etc. compared to them? No, so why compare gun crime?
Can we have a sensible discussion? Please?
Nobody is saying a blanket ban on guns. It's all about what is sensible. Do you need a sub machine gun to protect your property? No. Do you need one to commit mass murder? It really helps.
It's all about baby steps. Reduce numbers of highly deadly weapons that aren't needed first. Tighten controls - NOT BAN - and then move on from there. It's not black and white and reacting like it is doesn't help.
There's a problem with gun culture in the US. It doesn't affect any other First World, leading social and economic power - citing Honduras as being a country equivalent to the US is ludicrous. Would you like your economy, broadband infrastructure, pay per capita, etc. compared to them? No, so why compare gun crime?
Can we have a sensible discussion? Please?
It's so weird to see someone actually be so blind to think it's the right thing to have and ignore all the facts.
It doesn't happen in any other civilised country but America and here you have someone so happy to have guns around that he'll completely ignore the facts he himself posts.
It's fascinating how anyone can be so thick and blind because it's in the Constitution.
It doesn't happen in any other civilised country but America and here you have someone so happy to have guns around that he'll completely ignore the facts he himself posts.
It's fascinating how anyone can be so thick and blind because it's in the Constitution.
Snoo
The Legend
Ben,
This comes as no surprise. The Conservative leaders for President at this moment are Ben Carson and.. let me say it slowly so it sinks in.. Donald. ****. Trump. Feel free to google their lovely comments since the Presidential race began.
These are the same types of people who block change in every way, shape, and form under President Obama and will continue to do so unless Liberals regain the majority in Congress.
All that being said, not all conservatives share such viewpoints. Tomahawk, a man with very strong opinions, especially conservative, share more of my viewpoint then Xpress'.
This comes as no surprise. The Conservative leaders for President at this moment are Ben Carson and.. let me say it slowly so it sinks in.. Donald. ****. Trump. Feel free to google their lovely comments since the Presidential race began.
These are the same types of people who block change in every way, shape, and form under President Obama and will continue to do so unless Liberals regain the majority in Congress.
All that being said, not all conservatives share such viewpoints. Tomahawk, a man with very strong opinions, especially conservative, share more of my viewpoint then Xpress'.
Dave
CF Legend
I lost all support after America seemed 'fine' that an armed gunman killed 20 children with a mixture of weapons and STILL the argument for guns wins the day.
In this country someone did the same in 1996 in Scotland and all handguns were banned (with only permit exceptions) after automatic weapons were banned in the late 80s after mass shooting in Hungerford.
Usually the problem is mental health in a lot of the cases, but you know no one wants to tackle that along with gun control.
In this country someone did the same in 1996 in Scotland and all handguns were banned (with only permit exceptions) after automatic weapons were banned in the late 80s after mass shooting in Hungerford.
Usually the problem is mental health in a lot of the cases, but you know no one wants to tackle that along with gun control.
Dave
CF Legend
I lost all support after America seemed 'fine' that an armed gunman killed 20 children with a mixture of weapons and STILL the argument for guns wins the day.
In this country someone did the same in 1996 in Scotland and all handguns were banned (with only permit exceptions) after automatic weapons were banned in the late 80s after mass shooting in Hungerford.
Usually the problem is mental health in a lot of the cases, but you know no one wants to tackle that along with gun control.
In this country someone did the same in 1996 in Scotland and all handguns were banned (with only permit exceptions) after automatic weapons were banned in the late 80s after mass shooting in Hungerford.
Usually the problem is mental health in a lot of the cases, but you know no one wants to tackle that along with gun control.
cjbrandy
Hyper Poster
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-34987697
Hurry the **** up Obama and ban these **** guns! Anyone who tries to defend gun rights is a retard, Im sick of hearing "if we have guns we can stop mass shootings by killing the attacker" as an excuse.
Hurry the **** up Obama and ban these **** guns! Anyone who tries to defend gun rights is a retard, Im sick of hearing "if we have guns we can stop mass shootings by killing the attacker" as an excuse.
mouse
Giga Poster
'Bulletproof Blankets' are now being marketed towards schools in the US:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... unmen.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... unmen.html