El Toro incident 25 August

[Matt N]

Under Spanos.

Selim has gone on record stating no additions for 2-3 years.

Oh dear...

 

[Aaron Smith]

Having ridden it on 22 August I would say that it was running pretty horribly in places. Very rough. But then I do like my coasters to be as smooth as a seductive saxophone solo

I've seen several people who have ridden it within the last month say similar things. In 2019, El Toro was getting quite rough and the turnaround after the two airtime hills jackhammered me so badly I considered never riding it again. After it reopened for the 2021 season I rode it in May and while not as smooth as when it opened, it was running almost as well it was in 2006. I rode El Toro maybe 6 times between May and June and it was incredible. I'm very interested to see what happened and what the future of the ride is.

I've been wondering a lot about that myself. All those coasters built in the early 2000s - in particular, the boom between 1998 and 2006 - are starting to show their age, and some come with pretty big maintenance obligations these days. Just their upkeep - retaining the lineup they currently have in functional order - is getting heckishly expensive. And after that is taken care of, there's little money left to invest in renewal. Six Flags as a chain has barely built any rides coming close to the size of El Toro since the financial crisis of 2007. Yet refurbishing it to good-as-new standard would probably cost approximately the same as building it from the ground up. Would SFGAdv have the money to do that? And if they do, how many years of the investment budget would it require? And it's just to maintain the status quo. You don't pull in many new guests with "Look, that coaster you've known for the past 16 years is still in operation!", even if it cost millions to make it so.

Refurbishing El Toro would be one of the biggest investments in a Six Flags park in the past decade. Sums they've barely afforded a handful of times across all their parks. And that's just one coaster. What will happen when the headliner coasters at other parks begin to require similar overhauls? If memory serves correctly, the chain built around seventy quite big coasters in the eight years between 1998 and 2006. I really wonder what will happen when their "replace before" dates start coming up.

I've asked this same question and it frightens me tbh. Trying to imagine that park without Nitro, Kingda Ka, or even Batman makes me sad because unless they do a complete retrack of Nitro/Batman, any replacement coaster will not be nearly as fun or impressive. It's like trying to imagine Magic Mountain without Tatsu or X2 as well. The next 10 year or so as these huge coaster in the chain start to come to the end of their service life will be interesting.

 

[dcxs]

Regarding service life, many Arrow steel coasters have been running for 40 yrs, and I think a lot of them have not been retracked. So lets chill a bit with the doom and gloom But regarding El Toro specifically, it will probably need one given that Balder and Colussos had one too.

 

[Crazycoaster]

Yeah I think people are jumping to conclusions about just how long these coasters last. Hulk was more than likely replaced when it was because they already had a new fabricated track ready to go for that dubai (was it dubai?) park that got cancelled, and Nemesis will need the work because of it’s location in a trench and failing foundations. It doesn’t mean that every 90’s B&M will need to be replaced soon. Some of them may need problem patches redone, but I can’t see them all suddenly giving up the ghost with no way to repair them without a full retrack.

 

[Pear]

Hulk was more than likely replaced when it was because they already had a new fabricated track ready to go for that dubai (was it dubai?) park that got cancelled

I thought the track for this went to Beijing for Decepticoaster?

 

[Crazycoaster]

I’m honestly not 100% sure either way, I just seem to remember someone saying that the new Hulk was from dubai, as it’s an exact clone, where as the decepticoaster is a remodel.

 

[Pokemaniac]

I’m honestly not 100% sure either way, I just seem to remember someone saying that the new Hulk was from dubai, as it’s an exact clone, where as the decepticoaster is a remodel.

I remember starting a discussion about this a couple years back. We concluded that while there was indeed a Hulk clone planned for Dubai, there's no evidence that any of its track was ever manufactured. The reason Hulk was replaced was probably the fact that it had operated year-round in a harsh climate for a couple of decades, which would wear down a coaster much sooner than a seasonally operated coaster.

 

[roomraider]

@Pokemaniac is correct. Track for the Dubai was never manufactured although it did get far enough to get a project number.

And yes Decepticoaster isn't an exact clone it's layout has been reprofiled a fair bit.

 

[Steely Dan]

many Arrow steel coasters have been running for 40 yrs,

Hell, some of the earliest Arrow mine trains are now almost pushing 60 years!

But even if you just want to talk about their higher speed/higher force multi-loopers, some are now closer to 50 than they are to 40.

Two of the original corkscrews from '75 are still hanging on (not at their original locations) at the age of 47, and the 3 oldest Arrow custom loopers still around (CP's Corkscrew and the Great America Demon twins) are now all 46 years old.

 

[Steely Dan]

As for this latest El Toro incident, I've long been of the opinion that if you want a roller coaster that goes really fast, just make the track out of steel and save yourself the headaches.

If you're absolutely dead set on being able to market your ride as some superlative of "wooden" coaster, then just cheat with topper track.

 

[oriolat2]

As for this latest El Toro incident, I've long been of the opinion that if you want a roller coaster that goes really fast, just make the track out of steel and save yourself the headaches.

If you're absolutely dead set on being able to market your ride as some superlative of "wooden" coaster, then just cheat with topper track.

Shame RMC has discontinued the production of topper track. Now they offer something called 208 ReTrak, which are sections of I-Box track fitted in high-stress areas of current coasters (Lightning Rod, for instance).

 

[Nitefly]

As for this latest El Toro incident, I've long been of the opinion that if you want a roller coaster that goes really fast, just make the track out of steel and save yourself the headaches.

If you're absolutely dead set on being able to market your ride as some superlative of "wooden" coaster, then just cheat with topper track.

I’m inclined to agree. As good as El Toro and Voyage were otherwise, they seem too massive to be made out of the materials they are made out of (at least at this age). There is a lots of charm with a good wood coaster but there is nothing charming about a ride being injury inducing with roughness, which felt like the case with those two.

I don’t think you’d lose anything with swapping out some of the track on those rides with steel track to avoid pot holes and spine-rattling.

 

[roomraider]

Here's a dumb question. The best steel coasters almost all have their rails on the inside and the wheels on the outside. In-fact over the years almost every major manafacturer has changed to now do it this way (sans maybe Morgan)

Would this be possible with wooden rides?
Would it make a difference?
If not why not?

 

[Nicky Borrill]

Here's a dumb question. The best steel coasters almost all have their rails on the inside and the wheels on the outside. In-fact over the years almost every major manafacturer has changed to now do it this way (sans maybe Morgan)

Would this be possible with wooden rides?
Would it make a difference?
If not why not?

Interesting idea. I'm honestly not sure about the answer. But I am / would be surprised if it hadn't already been thought about / tried.

Seems to me, a clueless idiot, that it may even make construction simpler.

I'm wondering if wood is strong enough though. I mean,we know it has enough compressive strength to hold a train as it passes over, compressing the track directly into the support structure. But to get upstop wheels in, and side friction on the outside, the track would need to overhang. Meaning it would need a lot of flexual (or tensile) strength to hold the train's weight as it passes. I dunno, I know what I'm trying to say, but don't know if I explained it well enough.

 

[Dar]

I always thought it was because having the wheels on the outside required tighter tolerances? Or internal wheels allowed the looser tolerances woodies need?

 

[Peter Immelmann]

Here's a dumb question. The best steel coasters almost all have their rails on the inside and the wheels on the outside. In-fact over the years almost every major manafacturer has changed to now do it this way (sans maybe Morgan)

Would this be possible with wooden rides?
Would it make a difference?
If not why not?

I think it's a good question. I was asking myself the same thing at some point. Actually, I remember that Werner Stengel (I came across him at an event called Achterbahn Akademie at Holiday Park in 2006) was making that point. He was explaining why - from an engineering point of view - it's somewhat stupid (he found more diplomatic words though) to design the track with the side-friction wheels inside, i.e. the Vekoma's MK1200 style. Unfortunately, I do not recall the argument anymore. Anyway, it's somewhat significant that for woodies the "outside-sidewheel" variant has never been considered. Maybe it's the tolerance argument of Dar. (Then this could also be the reason why Vekoma chose it in the old days ) But that wouldn't explain why RMC chose this for their ibox. Would be interesting to hear if they actually thought about it.

Anyways, back to El Toro: I was actually riding it for the first (and maybe the last ) time in May this year. The pull-out after the first turn-around at the far end had a shockingly bumpy spot that felt like it would break my back. Actually, I immediately feared this would cause a severe pain in the back and could ruin my day. It made me holding my breath for the rest of the ride. Luckily, there was no other such rough spot (though the twisted ending was still far from being overly smooth) and my back was ok after all so I could still enjoy the day. But I honestly didn't dare to try a second lap on it. I must say though, I did sit on a wheel seat (last row), so I guess it would have been a bit less extreme in the middle row of the car. In any case, it really felt as if this was not as it meant to be and I was wondering if I was the only one who had an issue with that particular spot.

 

[davidm]

Update via here, doesn't sound good.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1572603265480785920

 

[Pokemaniac]

I wonder if Everland is looking nervously at T-Express now. All the other Intamin P'n'P woodies have been worn to the point of requiring extensive rework in recent years - in order of their construction year, I might add - and T-Express is the youngest of them by only two years.

 

[Wazzupnerds]

Ill just copy and paste what I said on Reddit.

Its done. It would be probably the best money-wise to raze it anyway. Sucks to say.
Of course Reddit was not happy seeing realism once again.

 

[TPoseOnTantrum]

Full paywalled article here;

JACKSON — State inspectors called to examine the El Toro roller coaster at Six Flags Great Adventure have ruled the ride is "structurally compromised," according to the New Jersey Department of Community Affairs.

Ride inspectors "identified structural damage affecting multiple wooden track support columns in a section of the coaster track" during their field investigation following an incident on Aug. 25 in which more than a dozen riders were injured on the roller coaster, DCA spokeswoman Lisa Ryan said.

"Based on initial findings of the ongoing investigation, DCA has deemed these damaged track support columns structurally compromised as it pertains to the continued safe operation of the ride," she said.

On Aug. 25, witnesses reported hearing a "loud bang" and seeing a train on El Toro jolt during operation. In a CBS report from shortly after the incident, a park employee reported that the issue was a slight separation between the steel track and the wooden structure, known among ride engineers as a "pothole."

According to the DCA, 14 riders reported injuries following the incident, including five that required medical transport. At the time, a Six Flags spokesperson said the injuries included neck injuries, back injuries and mouth and tongue injuries.

The ride was immediately shut down following the incident and will also undergo an engineering review by the state, Ryan said.
It's still not clear what caused the structural damage, but the department plans to review documentation and consult with the ride manufacturer, Intamin Amusement Rides.

A representative for Six Flags did not immediately return a request for comment.

Ken Martin, a Virginia-based amusement park safety consultant and expert, said the structural issues were severe. The structural damage could have been caused by "excessive wear and tear that's not appropriately addressed," Martin said. But he stressed there's no one person or entity necessarily to blame: While it could be park operators not maintaining the ride to its manufacturer's standards, those standards may have underestimated the ridership and just how much damage it could do, for
example.

But the fact that multiple track support columns showed structural damage means it didn't happen overnight.

"When you've got reports from authorities saying there's multiple problems, that means it's been building up for a couple of years," Martin said. "Maybe it's inferior parts. Maybe somebody caused the damage. But this is why you're supposed to do checks, to make sure everything's working.

"Something has to be fixed before they open back up."

El Toro had only been in operation for a little over five months after the ride was shuttered for much of the park's 2021 season.

In June 2021, a train partially derailedwhile the ride was in operation and came only to a stop after traveling "most of the ride course" with its wheels out of place, according to an incident report. DCA inspectors visited the park more than a dozen times to monitor tests and repairs to the ride.

The park received the green light to reopen the ride on March 30, 2022.

The June 2021 and August 2022 incidents aren't the only incidents on the ride's record, but they are the most serious. It was shut down for a two-week period near the start of the park's 2021 season after inspectors found a defective ground fault circuit interrupter.

In previous years, DCA inspectors shut down two rows on one train due to a lap bar malfunction and found the park was non-compliant with rules involving signage, clearing vegetation from the tracks and for a loose handrail and tripping hazard on the ramps.

El Toro has been one of the main attractions at Six Flags Great Adventure since it opened in June 2006. The roller coaster has long been heralded for giving riders the rickety thrill of an old-school wooden roller coaster with the kinds of heights and speed — it carries riders as high as 181 feet, drops them 176 feet at a 76-degree angle and reaches maximum speeds of 70 mph — usually reserved for more modern, steel coasters.

Since 2009, El Toro has never been ranked lower than the third-best wooden roller coaster in the world as part of the "Golden Ticket Awards" announced each year by Amusement Today. The ride was ranked at no. 3 in 2022 and hit the no. 1 ranking in 2012 and 2017.

A friend of mine who works at the park also made an interesting comment this morning, think it's worth sharing here;

"All I can say at this point is so basically, the ground underneath the coaster has been softened up to the point of fear of collapse and sinkholes. Years ago when they were first talking about removing Rolling Thunder, they saw the ground and was like the ground was to unstable for 2 massive wooden coasters on the same plot of land, so they removed it and when constructing Toro they beefed up the concrete foundation to support the coaster. But it's gotten worse over the past 5 years and now we have this. The struggle now is, does Selim want to sink money into the coaster to get the foundation updated, or do we tear it down and build something new in a different plot of land? They know they can't fix erosion and the creek, it's Natural and runs under the park, they can't just remove it."

SFGADV is in an awkward position for spending cash right now. It's been confirmed recently at an event that Nitro will receive a full repaint this offseason, and there's talk that right before Selim took office they signed a VERY large coaster project with a certain Swiss manufacturer for 2024. Repainting a hyper is no cheap endeavor either, Canada's Wonderland has been talking about Behemoth for years now since it's visibly been through the mill, and reps never fail to bring up the enormous budget associated with it. If SFGADV actually goes full force on both of these projects for the next two years, would they really go as far as fixing Toro?