I'm A Celebrity... Don't Get Me Out of Here! [1ST EVICTION]
- Thread starter nealbie
- Start date
nealbie
CF Legend
Slash said:
Well I'm not going to count deaths on the other side in WW2 because they didn't personally kill them.
But as far as signing the death warrants themselves...
Hitler
6.3 million Jews
300,000 political prisoners of the state
Between 2 & 3 million of his own people through starvation by taking away their food etc for the war effort
Stalin
12 million Jews across the Ukraine and other now "Baltic States"
20+ million of his own people (serfs), by taking all their food away for the army
600,000 political prisoners of the state
4,000 Polish military whom he then told the Polish "had escaped" and it remained unknown until the fall of the Iron Curtain
Not that it's a death contest, but Stalin was much worse than Hitler. Both were anti-semitic to the extreme, but Stalin was even harsher to his own people not giving a damn about the peasant folk his communist party were supposed to make equal. Plus Hitler was in fact very loyal to his allies, whereas Stalin betrayed many of them killing thousands of people he was allied with in the second world war!
^Um...
Hitler was loyal...?
I'd look up the Nazi-Soviet Pact if I was you. Ironically, the person he betrayed there... was Stalin!
And you should never say "the famines under Stalin resulted in __________ deaths", because no-one KNOWS how many died. We can guess, but that's it, and that's all historians have ever done with it. But, it's highly unlikely the famine actually killed more than 20,000,000 and you'll be hard-pressed to find a recent historian who will quote that as a number. You wouldn't find that sort of number as a total death toll in too many books actually. But, regardless, it's highly flimsy IMO to place the blame of the famine entirely on Stalin, since it can and has been argued as an unintentional consequence of collectivisation. Don't blame the people hoarding grain
In your defence though, Stalin probably 'killed' MORE people than you're arguing in some areas! IE., it was actually 800,000 prisoners of the State. So... uh, yeah. I'd personally argue Stalin was worse for his own people, but, they often ****ed off and stayed in Russia. It can also be argued the extent to which all this was Stalin's fault, and to what extent the blame can be placed on the Secret Police. And then there's the fact Stalin and the USSR bloody well helped in WWII. Oh, and a lot of the Soviet War Crimes have been argued as 'revenge' for earlier atrocities committed to the USSR by Germany .
Honestly, I'd personally look at the USSR in the bigger picture. You've got a LOT of very 'blood-thirsty' people over there, in the NKVD, Red Army etc. You can NOT ignore them as aggressors in this, and sure, while Stalin had his finger on the pulse, CAN you put the entire blame on him? Is it right to entirely blame the headteacher when a student is a bully?
I won't go into Hitler, I don't pretend to know as much about him as Stalin. I've always thought Stalin was the much more interesting ruler of the two. But, I will say, he kind of... um... STARTED World War II... if the blood for what the Red Army and NKVD did is going to be on Stalin's hands, I think we have one of the biggest wars in history and its blood on Hitler's hands...
Anyway, this all completely and utterly goes back to Slash. You can NOT judge the atrocities of a ruler by their death count. Franco and Mussolini look a bit flimsy and wimpy if you compare their death counts to these other two, doesn't make them any less of a complete and utter bell-end who ****ed their country royally in the arse... Franco moreso. Mussolini lacked the intelligence to **** up too much :roll: You have to look at SO much more than that, but, I'm not going to go into it, I'll be here all bloody day writing a dissertation if I start.
Just one more thing...
This seems to suggest that while you realise Hitler was a dictator, you seem not to allow Stalin the same title. Here we have proof you should never open your mouth and try to make something historical come out of it.
God, I feel like Dave when someone uses a point and shoot... Why have I posted so much in such a useless topic...?
Hitler was loyal...?
I'd look up the Nazi-Soviet Pact if I was you. Ironically, the person he betrayed there... was Stalin!
And you should never say "the famines under Stalin resulted in __________ deaths", because no-one KNOWS how many died. We can guess, but that's it, and that's all historians have ever done with it. But, it's highly unlikely the famine actually killed more than 20,000,000 and you'll be hard-pressed to find a recent historian who will quote that as a number. You wouldn't find that sort of number as a total death toll in too many books actually. But, regardless, it's highly flimsy IMO to place the blame of the famine entirely on Stalin, since it can and has been argued as an unintentional consequence of collectivisation. Don't blame the people hoarding grain
In your defence though, Stalin probably 'killed' MORE people than you're arguing in some areas! IE., it was actually 800,000 prisoners of the State. So... uh, yeah. I'd personally argue Stalin was worse for his own people, but, they often ****ed off and stayed in Russia. It can also be argued the extent to which all this was Stalin's fault, and to what extent the blame can be placed on the Secret Police. And then there's the fact Stalin and the USSR bloody well helped in WWII. Oh, and a lot of the Soviet War Crimes have been argued as 'revenge' for earlier atrocities committed to the USSR by Germany .Honestly, I'd personally look at the USSR in the bigger picture. You've got a LOT of very 'blood-thirsty' people over there, in the NKVD, Red Army etc. You can NOT ignore them as aggressors in this, and sure, while Stalin had his finger on the pulse, CAN you put the entire blame on him? Is it right to entirely blame the headteacher when a student is a bully?
I won't go into Hitler, I don't pretend to know as much about him as Stalin. I've always thought Stalin was the much more interesting ruler of the two
. But, I will say, he kind of... um... STARTED World War II... if the blood for what the Red Army and NKVD did is going to be on Stalin's hands, I think we have one of the biggest wars in history and its blood on Hitler's hands... Anyway, this all completely and utterly goes back to Slash. You can NOT judge the atrocities of a ruler by their death count. Franco and Mussolini look a bit flimsy and wimpy if you compare their death counts to these other two, doesn't make them any less of a complete and utter bell-end who ****ed their country royally in the arse... Franco moreso. Mussolini lacked the intelligence to **** up too much :roll: You have to look at SO much more than that, but, I'm not going to go into it, I'll be here all bloody day writing a dissertation if I start.
Just one more thing...
This seems to suggest that while you realise Hitler was a dictator, you seem not to allow Stalin the same title. Here we have proof you should never open your mouth and try to make something historical come out of it.
God, I feel like Dave when someone uses a point and shoot... Why have I posted so much in such a useless topic...?
10ryansmith
Roller Poster
Simon, arrogent a$$.
nealbie
CF Legend
Well I think it's fair to say that Jezza Kyle with 5 votes has got to go, so....
But because of the tie for the 2nd eviction, both Vin Diesel and Piers Morgan will be evicted this week leaving us with only 1 person up for eviction this coming Friday! The poll will begin at around 8 o'clock(ish) this evening.
ps- and thanks to Rach for the fantastic death shots of our celebrities
But because of the tie for the 2nd eviction, both Vin Diesel and Piers Morgan will be evicted this week leaving us with only 1 person up for eviction this coming Friday! The poll will begin at around 8 o'clock(ish) this evening.
ps- and thanks to Rach for the fantastic death shots of our celebrities
