Is it a cred? - A general discussion topic

[UP87]

So you count portable roller coasters as a separate count on every fair?

Clones and retracking are a difficult topic for me. Clones are completely different material and might have other slight differences. But the same thing is true if you look at retracking like Python in Efteling or Eurosat in Europa Park. I mean they even modified the banking in some points. On the other hand this happens on wooden coasters all the time as they need retracking due to their material.

I count clones, I don't count relocations or retracking.

 

[Hixee]

My system, which has always seemed fairly good to me (of course) is similar to @UP87, above.

Relocation: No new cred. It's the same piece of steel, simply in a different place.
Clone: New cred. Two people could simultaneously ride the two creds, therefore they're two separate things.

Retracking is where things get a bit funky. I've split it into two categories in my head:
Minor retracking (for example: every woodie that gets a few hundred feet replaced every other season, etc): No new cred.
Major tracking (for example: Hulk - only one I can think of): New cred - it's basically a clone that just happens to be in the same place.

Additionally:
Racing/duelling coasters are individually unique creds.
Mobius coasters require both sides to be ridden (i.e. the full track) to count once, but after that are just one ride either side.

In every case, however, a repaint/rename/retheme etc of an existing cred doesn't count for **** (although for what it's worth, I will only update my tracking spreadsheet with the new name once I've ridden it under the new name, so for example I still have DD Fire & Ice in my spreadsheet as I never rode them as Dragon Challenge).

 

[Fluorineer]

Major tracking (for example: Hulk - only one I can think of): New cred - it's basically a clone that just happens to be in the same place.

I think we had this discussion briefly in the Colossos Retracking thread as well, however there with the consensus (-ish ) that it is not a new cred. I'm still torn about this to be honest, since the ride is clearly intended to be the exact same thing it was before the retracking, in the exact same place. Since you specifically mention minor retracking as not a new cred, this almost becomes a Ship of Theseus issue for me, since pretty much every wooden coaster will have undergone an entire retracking throughout its lifetime.

As for "it's basically a clone", I would sort of disagree, because in those special cases, that clone is fully dependent on the original ride making way. In the case of Colossos, they had to rip out the old track and decide to stick with the original support structure, before they could start building on the "cloned" new track. This wouldn't be true for any other instance of clone, since usually, clones are fully independent of their original.

It would be different if Colossos turned out to be rotten lumber altogether, so they had to get rid of it entirely and rebuild it from scratch. In that case, yes, it just so happens that the new Colossos occupies old Colossos' plot of land, but technically, they could have done that kind of rebuild anywhere and it could have operated as an independent clone of the original. The way they did it though, not possible.

EDIT: god dammit with the Colossos and Colossus confusion

 

[Hixee]

You know the annoying part of your post, @Fluorineer? I agree with every word of it. I also disagree with every word of it.

I see it like this...

If I ride the woodie every season that's gradually be retracked then I don't ever experience the "whole thing" new. With Hulk (and Colossos) the whole coaster was replaced without you ('one') having chance to ride it 'partially' retracked.

Now yes, I know what you're going to say. The "whole thing" didn't get replaced - they left the supports up - but I think the work done to those two rides was so intense (when compared to run-of-the-mill retracking) that I can't lump them in with a bit of lumber replacement or turn reprofiling (thinking Timber Wolf turnaround).

I've added the minor/major distinction as a way to (hopefully) help me differentiate between the two. That said, currently I think it's only Hulk and Colossos in the "major" category (although I haven't ridden new-Colossos yet and likely won't for some time), and I can't see it happening that often, so it probably won't make much difference in the end...

 

[emoo]

My system, which has always seemed fairly good to me (of course) is similar to @UP87, above.

and me on that list.

As for fair coasters, they get a +1 only if I know its not already been counted.

Coaster-Count helped me work out a few from Nottingham, Hull and Winter Wonderland (+2 kiddys this year, whoop).

This leaves an unknown quantity of unclassified spinning mouses (mice?) in my past. They are all clumped as a 1 count.

Dunno about Colossos, just pretend this is 2 posts further up.

 

[Gavin]

If the name has changed, but the coaster hasn't, I wouldn't count it.

However, I personally do count it if a coaster gets relocated. I know others wouldn't, which is fair, but I feel it's a very different ride experience in a new location. I just look to the fact that Phoenix at Knobels rides reportedly rides better in it's new location than it's previous location.

Besides, if you didn't count that, how could you then count cloned coasters as separate credits (such as all the various identical B&M Batman clones, or the very common Galaxi or Wacky Worm)? Although I suppose some people don't.

If you had a Toyota Corolla a while back and you drove it around Manchester one week, and Birmingham the next, had you been driving a different car each time?

If, a few years later, you bought another, newer Toyota Corolla, have you got a new car or not?

That's how I see it. Same machine in a new location = you've ridden it; the "new experience" is irrelevant. New machine = new credit; you haven't ridden that exact coaster.

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[RollerCoasterRob2019]

Just wondering, I've only rode X: No Way Out once, in 2006, when it was backwards. Is it a new cred if I now ride again? Same track but you're going forwards.. so a technically a different ride.. but contentious I know. I never got to ride Swarm backwards but, even though it was the same track, having the seats backwards is a completely different ride experience. Not like a clone in a new place as above - but technically a "different rollercoaster" even though same track. Like if they swapped the trains of Nemesis with Galactica / Air and vice versa.. 2 new creds? Oh they should totally do that for sh*ts and gigs!

 

[emoo]

X has had so many themes, light packages, spruce ups and rethemes which at some point did have the same cars reversed. It just counts as one to me and likely most others. But thankfully you don't have to have ridden every iteration otherwise I'd done like 70%.

 

[Gavin]

People can count what they want, but "ride experience" is bollocks.

Rode it in the day - 1 cred
Rode it at night - another cred
Rode it in the rain - 3rd cred
Rode it with an empty train - that makes 4
Rode the blue train - 5
Bought the ORP once - 6 creds!



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[rideguy70]

If you had a Toyota Corolla a while back and you drove it around Manchester one week, and Birmingham the next, had you been driving a different car each time?

If, a few years later, you bought another, newer Toyota Corolla, have you got a new car or not?

That's how I see it. Same machine in a new location = you've ridden it; the "new experience" is irrelevant. New machine = new credit; you haven't ridden that exact coaster.

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I would count it if, in Manchester, it got four new tires. That significantly changes the ride experience and feel.

Different parks operate rides in different ways. The wild mouse in Disneyland/DCA has trim brakes on in different locations than the same mouse ride at Six Flags. The operations are completely different.

Also, if I have a Toyota Corolla, and I drive some one else's Toyota Corolla, it generally feels totally different.

You don't have to agree... to be honest, I see your point. But I think a lot can change when a ride is relocated in terms of theming, location, and operations. Does it always change? No, but enough for me to count it as a different credit.

 

[Heth]

X:/ No Way Out / X / The Walking Dead: The Ride is an interesting example. If you compare the original backwards ride to its current forward facing version they are completely different experiences despite the same track. Its definitely a grey area.

I'm not super hung up on cred hunting, to the point that in some parks I still haven't got all creds because I'm not fussed about adding and SLC or kiddie coaster to my list. I do however like making lists for fun.

In general I'd judge whether something is a cred on whether it feels like a rollercoaster or not. I don't think there's necessarily a clear cut line that a ride has to cross, more of a general feeling.

Examples:

Runaway Mine Train at Alton Towers is a powered coaster, but it has a long track and has typical coaster elements, so I count it. Generally I count most powered coasters.

Atlantica Supersplash at Europa Park is an iffy one, but I just about include it because it has both the drop between turntables and the bunny hop before the splash. I only JUST count it though.

Fuga di Atlantide at Gardaland I do not count as a cred because apart from the track design it really just adheres to log flume and water ride style drops.

For dueling coasters, I count them as separate provided they have different enough layouts. If you were to move one of the two tracks to another part if the park you would call them different rides.

Examples:

Joris en de Draak is definitely two rides for me as whilst they initially follow the same beats they diverge enough afterwards to be separate.

Winjas Fear and Force apply for the same reasons as Joris. They are quite distinct.

Space Mountain in WDW MK is definitely just one cred to me as the tracks are barely different beyond being mirrored.

 

[TilenB]

I would count it if, in Manchester, it got four new tires. That significantly changes the ride experience and feel

Damn, good thing you don't live in a country that requires drivers to switch between Winter and Summer tires. Then you'd be driving a different car every 6 months or so. How crazy would that be!

 

[rideguy70]

And you're going to tell me the car feels and drives the same way between those different tires?

 

[TilenB]

And you're going to tell me the car feels and drives the same way between those different tires?

Well, it's certainly not the same, but the car also drives differently if it's rainy, snowy, wind, cold, etc.

The argument you're making almost makes me think that you would also count riding the coaster in a different seat as a new cred...

 

[Hyde]

I know the "experience" notion was shared with regard to retracking of coasters, and if majority of the coaster has been retracked to the point the "experience" changes.

I think the thing to always root back to is the literal track, and if you have ridden that before or not. Relocation? Still the same track, same credit. Serious retracking that inserts majority new track? New credit.

The variability of "experience" is extremely wide ranging, to the point that it's difficult to discern to the point of number of "credits" to attribute.

 

[rctneil]

I normally go along with my own thoughts about the matter. I really do not mind if someone agrees with what I consider a coaster or not. It's a personal opinion but still fun to see what others opinions are. My own opinions are similar to @Hixee above but with a few changes:

Relocation: No new credit. Same track in a different place
Clone: New credit.
Racing / Dueling: One credit for each side. Eg: Blackpool's Steeplechase is three.
Mobius: I agree that these should be counted as one that covers both sides of the track but from a "writing it down, keeping track" point of view it's easier just to count each side separately. At the most, if you've ridden all three wooden mobius' then you have +3. It's not worth getting upset about.

Modifications and retracking is the complicated bit. I don't consider seasonal maintenace retracking as a new credit. Not sure how i'd deal with altered sections of a coaster though like the overbank on Timber Wolf. I imagine i'd just ignore it. I did ignore the retracking of Python at Efteling but i'm unsure whether or not to count it again,

 

[Heth]

I dont think I'd count a relocation but I'd definitely count a clone.

It actually dawned on me whilst considering this that I've never been on a ride that has been relocated. Every coaster I've been on originated at the park in which I rode it

 

[rideguy70]

Well, it's certainly not the same, but the car also drives differently if it's rainy, snowy, wind, cold, etc.

The argument you're making almost makes me think that you would also count riding the coaster in a different seat as a new cred...

A different seat, with the same ops, is the same ride.

Again, to be honest, I see your point. I just don't happen to agree. By your logic, you shouldn't be counting any cloned coasters (such as Batmans, Galaxis, Roller Skaters, Boomerangs, etc). What's the difference between riding a Boomerang at Knott's Berry Farm, Six Flags Discovery Kingdom, Hersheypark, and the one that just went up in China on a building rooftop if some of them are relocations, and some of them are clones?

 

[Hyde]

A different seat, with the same ops, is the same ride.

Again, to be honest, I see your point. I just don't happen to agree. By your logic, you shouldn't be counting any cloned coasters (such as Batmans, Galaxis, Roller Skaters, Boomerangs, etc). What's the difference between riding a Boomerang at Knott's Berry Farm, Six Flags Discovery Kingdom, Hersheypark, and the one that just went up in China on a building rooftop if some of them are relocations, and some of them are clones?

Clones? New credit. Again, if it’s a new set of track, it’s a new credit.

 

[Pokemaniac]

My preferred solution when it comes to clones and relocations and such: Keep two counts. Any obviously individual coasters go in the "definitely" count, clones and such go in the "maybe" count. My coaster count would then be expressed as a range.