Or just keep your coaster count as qualitative, such as: "weird", "nuanced", or "American".
Is it a cred? - A general discussion topic
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Gazza
Giga Poster
Relocation: No new credit. Same track in a different place
Clone: New credit.
Racing / Dueling: Separate credit for each. They've gone to the effort of building multiple tracks, which counts for more than a single coaster.
Mobius: 2 Credits! Each side is a coaster with a separate load and unload.
You CANNOT ride the thing in one go.
Clone: New credit.
Racing / Dueling: Separate credit for each. They've gone to the effort of building multiple tracks, which counts for more than a single coaster.
Mobius: 2 Credits! Each side is a coaster with a separate load and unload.
You CANNOT ride the thing in one go.
rideguy70
Mega Poster
Again, I can totally understand how many would disagree with me about counting relocations... I get it. Where I do have an issue is that if you don't count relocations, then how can you count clones? It should be either you count both or you count neither.
To me, if you count clones but not relocations, it sounds like you're saying, "If a coaster is relocated, it's the same track. But if it's a clone it's new track that does the exact same thing, has the exact same layout, and offers the same experience as a relocated coaster." So it's just the fact that it's new that makes all the difference here, even though every other single aspect is the same? What if a coaster was relocated but refurbished, like the Phoenix at Knobels? Is that a different credit than when it was The Rocket at Playland Park?
Examine these two hypothetical situations:
In both scenarios, you have two parks and two Boomerangs. But in the first scenario, one Boomerang doesn't count just because it was relocated? Yet somehow in the second scenario, they both count as a credit because clones are okay if they're new. It just sounds strange and inconsistent to me. As far as I'm concered, 2 parks > 2 Boomerangs > 2 credits. I don't care where they've been before, they're new to me.
Case and point, I rode Batman the Escape at Astroworld (well before it closed). It took me a good year or so to realize that it was formerly Shockwave at Six Flags Magic Mountain... the coaster had really transformed from black track to white, and a totally differently enclosed and themed station. I didn't even recognize it (from the enclosed station, you couldn't see the layout), and would have never known if someone hadn't told me later. Granted, it left SFMM in 1988, and I rode Batman the Escape in the early 2000s, so there was a 10+ year gap there for my memory to forget the layout. So this may explain why I'm partial to relocations.
In the end, how you count is a subjective thing. I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree here, and that's okay. We can all count in our own way. Just stating my point of view.
To me, if you count clones but not relocations, it sounds like you're saying, "If a coaster is relocated, it's the same track. But if it's a clone it's new track that does the exact same thing, has the exact same layout, and offers the same experience as a relocated coaster." So it's just the fact that it's new that makes all the difference here, even though every other single aspect is the same? What if a coaster was relocated but refurbished, like the Phoenix at Knobels? Is that a different credit than when it was The Rocket at Playland Park?
Examine these two hypothetical situations:
- In scenario one, say park #1 has a Boomerang. It was old and getting difficult to maintain, so they get rid it of it and send it to park #2. But then park #1 decides to purchase a new Boomerang and put it in the same spot as the old one.
- In scenario two, park #1 has a Boomerang, and then park #2 gets their own new Boomerang.
In both scenarios, you have two parks and two Boomerangs. But in the first scenario, one Boomerang doesn't count just because it was relocated? Yet somehow in the second scenario, they both count as a credit because clones are okay if they're new. It just sounds strange and inconsistent to me. As far as I'm concered, 2 parks > 2 Boomerangs > 2 credits. I don't care where they've been before, they're new to me.
Case and point, I rode Batman the Escape at Astroworld (well before it closed). It took me a good year or so to realize that it was formerly Shockwave at Six Flags Magic Mountain... the coaster had really transformed from black track to white, and a totally differently enclosed and themed station. I didn't even recognize it (from the enclosed station, you couldn't see the layout), and would have never known if someone hadn't told me later. Granted, it left SFMM in 1988, and I rode Batman the Escape in the early 2000s, so there was a 10+ year gap there for my memory to forget the layout. So this may explain why I'm partial to relocations.
In the end, how you count is a subjective thing. I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree here, and that's okay. We can all count in our own way. Just stating my point of view.
UP87
Mega Poster
But you get 2 credits! Only if you rode the relocated coaster before it moved it's not a new - third - credit. You only count the same coaster once. As @Gazza says you could go by serial number. Counting relocated coasters doesn't make any sense as you could just follow a travelling coaster to ramp up your count. I mean... in the end we all do it for fun... at least that's what I hope... you can count the same coaster as many times as you want to.
DelPiero
Strata Poster
Was the entire track of Colossos replaced? It's the same as a Iron Horse treatment if that's the case, except the replacement track was all new wood.You know the annoying part of your post, @Fluorineer? I agree with every word of it. I also disagree with every word of it.
I see it like this...
If I ride the woodie every season that's gradually be retracked then I don't ever experience the "whole thing" new. With Hulk (and Colossos) the whole coaster was replaced without you ('one') having chance to ride it 'partially' retracked.
Now yes, I know what you're going to say. The "whole thing" didn't get replaced - they left the supports up - but I think the work done to those two rides was so intense (when compared to run-of-the-mill retracking) that I can't lump them in with a bit of lumber replacement or turn reprofiling (thinking Timber Wolf turnaround).
I've added the minor/major distinction as a way to (hopefully) help me differentiate between the two. That said, currently I think it's only Hulk and Colossos in the "major" category (although I haven't ridden new-Colossos yet and likely won't for some time), and I can't see it happening that often, so it probably won't make much difference in the end...
rideguy70
Mega Poster
This is actually the best counterargument I've heard. But I will say that I don't count a traveling carnival/funfair coaster because I assume it's always run by the same company, so it's always going to be operated the same way.
BUT, if it's sold to a different company, they're likely to run it differently. If the mad mouse coaster at Disneyland/DCA was suddenly sold to Six Flags, it's very likely to be operated differently.
Going back to the car analogy, let's say I own a car and drive it for years. If I sell that car to someone else, then yes, of course it's the same car, but it's going to be run and operated completely differently. Is it the same car? Of course it is. But does it feel totally different? Of course it does. Same car, different experience. And while it's technically the same car, it feels so different to me, it may as well be a different car. All depends on your point of view. Personally, I think both sides have a valid point.
UP87
Mega Poster
So you're not going to count coasters that move between two parks of the Six Flags chain? @rideguy70
Gazza
Giga Poster
The "experience" thing is not relevant.
You're looking at actual, physical coasters.
It's a count, experience is fuzzy and subjective, but we definitely can track how many coasters are out there.
in terms of counting clones, you count clones because sometimes it's a fun little game to see how many Batmans or Wacky Worms you have ridden, and indeed some people make a game of it to try and nab every single one of a given design. You go to SWSA and ride great white, and then SFFT and ride Goliath, you've clearly been on separate coasters.
In terms of relocations, its only one, but you might make a note if you managed to get it in two locations. Same goes for travelling coasters.
In terms of replacements or refurbishments.
-If it's just the track or trains, with no layout change or full replacement of supports, then it's the same. Eg Hulk and Collossos just replaced track.
-If there is major changes to the layout, eg RMCs or phantoms revenge, it's a new credit.
You're looking at actual, physical coasters.
It's a count, experience is fuzzy and subjective, but we definitely can track how many coasters are out there.
in terms of counting clones, you count clones because sometimes it's a fun little game to see how many Batmans or Wacky Worms you have ridden, and indeed some people make a game of it to try and nab every single one of a given design. You go to SWSA and ride great white, and then SFFT and ride Goliath, you've clearly been on separate coasters.
In terms of relocations, its only one, but you might make a note if you managed to get it in two locations. Same goes for travelling coasters.
In terms of replacements or refurbishments.
-If it's just the track or trains, with no layout change or full replacement of supports, then it's the same. Eg Hulk and Collossos just replaced track.
-If there is major changes to the layout, eg RMCs or phantoms revenge, it's a new credit.
I can't actually believe that the extremely straightforward car analogy is being twisted as a "new experience" to support the idea that a relocation is a new cred.
It's incredibly simple: car driven in new place = same machine. You can repaint it, change the tyres, let your friend drive it or drive it around a thousand different towns, but you're driving the same car regardless of the experience of it. It's not a different car. Simple. Would you tell people you've just got a new car after an oil change? Would you bollocks.
Different car = different machine. It's rolled off the production line at a totally different time, is made from 100% different components and exists in addition to every other identical car. If 1000 people are driving the same model of car at the same time, are they sharing a car? Of course not.
There's really no argument to be had against the analogy. I can't honestly believe it has to be explained further, but just in case:
If I drive my car in a new town, am I driving a new car? No. There's no other answer.
If people want to count relocations, fine. Totally up to them - own it - it's not like it massively impacts anyone's count anyway, but trying to twist that very straightforward car analogy in support of it is ludicrous.
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It's incredibly simple: car driven in new place = same machine. You can repaint it, change the tyres, let your friend drive it or drive it around a thousand different towns, but you're driving the same car regardless of the experience of it. It's not a different car. Simple. Would you tell people you've just got a new car after an oil change? Would you bollocks.
Different car = different machine. It's rolled off the production line at a totally different time, is made from 100% different components and exists in addition to every other identical car. If 1000 people are driving the same model of car at the same time, are they sharing a car? Of course not.
There's really no argument to be had against the analogy. I can't honestly believe it has to be explained further, but just in case:
If I drive my car in a new town, am I driving a new car? No. There's no other answer.
If people want to count relocations, fine. Totally up to them - own it - it's not like it massively impacts anyone's count anyway, but trying to twist that very straightforward car analogy in support of it is ludicrous.
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VikingsAf
Mega Poster
I don't want to get tangled in this discussion, but according to your example, you just prove your own point false.
"As far as I'm concered, 2 parks > 2 Boomerangs > 2 credits." is what everyone says. According to you it would be 2 parks > 2 boomerangs > 3 credits (as one of the boomerangs has stood in 2 parks)
rideguy70
Mega Poster
Actually, yes, it would be 3 credits to me (assuming I rode the original model)... I just realized I made that typo.
And to clarify, let me simplify what I'm saying... a ride is a single credit as long as it remains at the same park, unless it undergoes significantly different change (such as going from woodie to RMC). When Six Flags breifly changed Batman to backwards seats, that was a pretty major change... I'd count that as a credit. Minor changes, such as adding/taking away trims, new wheels, etc. still makes it a single credit. If a park moves a ride to a new location in the same park, but stays in the same park, it'd still be one credit to me.
It's only if a ride goes to a different park/changes owners that I would consider it a different/new credit. So a traveling funfair coaster is still a single credit, provided it stays with the same owners.
I totally get that most of you don't agree with me, and that's fine. And in a strange way, I should thank some of you who have been critical of me, as it's made me put more serious thought into this. But I'm still going to hold to my own conclusion that I stated above. As it's my personal count, you don't have to agree, and are free to count in you own way.
Coaster-Count has options for strict counts and duplicates. To some of your surprise, I got in-between at "All", which is lower than my duplicate count, but higher than my strict count... which I don't quite understand. Does anyone know how they count that?
And to clarify, let me simplify what I'm saying... a ride is a single credit as long as it remains at the same park, unless it undergoes significantly different change (such as going from woodie to RMC). When Six Flags breifly changed Batman to backwards seats, that was a pretty major change... I'd count that as a credit. Minor changes, such as adding/taking away trims, new wheels, etc. still makes it a single credit. If a park moves a ride to a new location in the same park, but stays in the same park, it'd still be one credit to me.
It's only if a ride goes to a different park/changes owners that I would consider it a different/new credit. So a traveling funfair coaster is still a single credit, provided it stays with the same owners.
I totally get that most of you don't agree with me, and that's fine. And in a strange way, I should thank some of you who have been critical of me, as it's made me put more serious thought into this. But I'm still going to hold to my own conclusion that I stated above. As it's my personal count, you don't have to agree, and are free to count in you own way.
Coaster-Count has options for strict counts and duplicates. To some of your surprise, I got in-between at "All", which is lower than my duplicate count, but higher than my strict count... which I don't quite understand. Does anyone know how they count that?
So on reflection, I decided not to count that. I decided not to as I realised it was a bit too close to the 'zipline' argument.
That said, it is VERY cred feeling. Once you hit the downhill section you can coast almost all the way back to the station (yes, part of that is uphill). If someone did add it to their count, I don't think I'd raise much objection.
That said, it is VERY cred feeling. Once you hit the downhill section you can coast almost all the way back to the station (yes, part of that is uphill). If someone did add it to their count, I don't think I'd raise much objection.
rctneil
Mega Poster
I think the thing to remember is that overall it's a very very subjective thing and if someone else doesn't agree then it's not the end of the world. That's the way I approach it anyway. And to be honest, the whole coaster counting thing actually has no use anyway apart from something fun to do.
Not agreeing with someone else's methods used to really bother me and then a few years back I was like "Why on earth should it even annoy me?" and that's the way it's been ever since. Everyone has their own way and that's how it should be, it also creates interesting discussions like in this thread.
Not agreeing with someone else's methods used to really bother me and then a few years back I was like "Why on earth should it even annoy me?" and that's the way it's been ever since. Everyone has their own way and that's how it should be, it also creates interesting discussions like in this thread.
So you don't count powered coasters then?