NEMESIS: SUB-TERRA [Alton 2012]

[Mark]

^But, it'd be Merlin who decide who runs each park and what cash they get.

You can't deny there's been a rapid downward movement in terms of new attraction quality and overall way the parks are run, IMO.

Couldn't agree more!

I really don't know what to think of this new attraction. In one breath I'm excited at the prospect of a highly themed, nemesis related attraction. In the other, I am worried that it's simply isn't going to hit that high a standard. I just can't make my mind up.

 

[Pierre]

Forgive my ignorance but

WHAT IS IT?!

 

[tks]

It's a rent in the space-time continuum.

 

[SaiyanHajime]

^But, it'd be Merlin who decide who runs each park and what cash they get.

You can't deny there's been a rapid downward movement in terms of new attraction quality and overall way the parks are run, IMO.

I don't actually know how I feel about this.

I think Chessington and Alton were already going down hill with attraction quality, investment and operations in the final few years of Tussauds. It was only Thorpe who wasn't, really.

The management at the parks wouldn't have changed as a direct result of Merlin, but maybe the join with Merlin meant some people were brought in from other attractions and so ways of doing things changed a little. I would have thought it changed where money was spent, but actually I think the budgets have probably gone up... Maybe what we're seeing is a higher investment so less emphasis on being creative and spending money well? I don't know.

We've seen the same thing happen to Busch, but with them it almost seems like thy were freed from a tie with B&M to spread their wings and experiment. But fans of the parks have reported a change in the way they are run in general.

 

[scw55]

If the dark ride was going to be themed around Rita, would there be less risk of disappointment?
Alton Towers seem to be putting a lot of effort towards hyping up the ride. They're picking up on the storyline and PR that was produced 18 years ago and carrying on the story. People's expectations will be heightened and if the ride doesn't meet expectations, then there will be a lot of unhappy fanatics.

If the ride had been built around race car dinosaur land/evacuating the forest, would visitors be more forgiving?

I wouldn't be surprised (and hope) they put some psychological element into the ride (besides story and atmosphere). I had read on Tower Times I think someone mentioned that the walls of the shaft will pull away as the seats drop to give the illusion of a deeper drop. However if it is four towers fixed on each side of the wall, I wouldn't know how that would work.
I'm slightly concerned that catacombs are meant to be the themeing for some part of the ride.If so, why is the construction looking like brick? I hope this is for structure purposes only and not just the final article. The Forbidden Valley comes across as natural/post apocalptic rusted, not secrete facility. X Sector would suite that setting better.

 

[Ben]

Forgive my ignorance but

WHAT IS IT?!

<3

I don't actually know how I feel about this.

I think Chessington and Alton were already going down hill with attraction quality, investment and operations in the final few years of Tussauds. It was only Thorpe who wasn't, really.

See, I don't agree. If the buyout was May 2007, the worst thing we'd had was Rita. And Rita's fab, so. Oh, and I guess Charlie.

It's since then we've had crap like Th13teen and Saw <//3 And the ridiculous marketing and the ridiculous money-grabbing <//3 I'd always heard that there was a lot of new management, at Alton particularly? No idea how true that is, but, you'd expect that when a buyout like that went through, the new owners would want a significant presence at the parks.

There's just a feeling with Merlin rides that they're very... Merlin. It's hard to describe, but, no-one else could have built Th13teen and Saw, and I'm just worried this is going to fall into that trap <//3

 

[furie]

I wouldn't be surprised (and hope) they put some psychological element into the ride (besides story and atmosphere). I had read on Tower Times I think someone mentioned that the walls of the shaft will pull away as the seats drop to give the illusion of a deeper drop. However if it is four towers fixed on each side of the wall, I wouldn't know how that would work.

This is natural "oh ****, we expected something excellent, but it's panning out to be crap, so we'll make things up to try and make it seem that it will be better than what we're presented with. Though when anyone goes on it, they'll be expecting all this extra brilliant stuff and it'll just be what we expected (an Extremis with a Nemesis scene at the top) and then we can all bitch about how disappointing it is and how it should have met my imaginings".

Pierre, it's a smallish drop tower with some theming and maybe a few effects to make it appear to be more than it is.

See, I don't agree. If the buyout was May 2007, the worst thing we'd had was Rita. And Rita's fab, so. Oh, and I guess Charlie.

It's since then we've had crap like Th13teen and Saw <//3 And the ridiculous marketing and the ridiculous money-grabbing <//3 I'd always heard that there was a lot of new management, at Alton particularly? No idea how true that is, but, you'd expect that when a buyout like that went through, the new owners would want a significant presence at the parks.

There's just a feeling with Merlin rides that they're very... Merlin. It's hard to describe, but, no-one else could have built Th13teen and Saw, and I'm just worried this is going to fall into that trap <//3

I agree to an extent Ben, but... When was the last major, well thought out Investment at a Tussauds park? Hex at Alton? Colossus at Thorpe (the ride may be ****, but there was a massive effort went into it)? Possibly Nemesis Inferno at a real push? Dragon's Fury and the Land of the Dragons?

It seemed that the Tussauds parks around 2003-2004 went through a period of "stick in anything to increase park value so we can sell this ASAP". Both Rita and Spinball were "good investments" for Alton, but they weren't well thought out or well planned. Look at Stealth, again it's a great addition to the park, but it's not the complete ride experience they initially planned. Lots of "as little as we can get away with without making things jar too much against the well laid out stuff that's already there".

I think that Merlin are better than that period, but they're not quite there. You're right Ben that the Merlin stuff is very Merlin. It's kind of "plan for the spectacular, budget for good enough". I guess they're the theme park owner equivalent of constipation: lots of promise, but never any follow through.

It will come down to local management pushing upwards for budgets to do things, but I'm better there's a central core to Merlin that overlooks design, budgeting, etc. which takes away some of the personality that local management would be able to push in. I think they're doing a better job than latter Tussauds, the attractions are well managed certainly, but there seems to be a slight lack of flair, or local commitment or something missing that means everything is a bit, well, meh.

 

[SaiyanHajime]

Forgive my ignorance but

WHAT IS IT?!

<3

I don't actually know how I feel about this.

I think Chessington and Alton were already going down hill with attraction quality, investment and operations in the final few years of Tussauds. It was only Thorpe who wasn't, really.

See, I don't agree. If the buyout was May 2007, the worst thing we'd had was Rita. And Rita's fab, so. Oh, and I guess Charlie.

It's since then we've had crap like Th13teen and Saw <//3 And the ridiculous marketing and the ridiculous money-grabbing <//3 I'd always heard that there was a lot of new management, at Alton particularly? No idea how true that is, but, you'd expect that when a buyout like that went through, the new owners would want a significant presence at the parks.

There's just a feeling with Merlin rides that they're very... Merlin. It's hard to describe, but, no-one else could have built Th13teen and Saw, and I'm just worried this is going to fall into that trap <//3

Dragon's Fury and Spinball, whilst good, fall into the realm of "poor attraction quality. And Stealth. They lack the creativity, investment of effort, thought and planning... I dunno WHY, but like Furie says, it's like they went through a faze of "QUICK GET ANYTHING THROW IT IN".

Rita, whilst you may like it, isn't quite as bad but it's still falling into the realm of lacking creativity. It makes little sense, was clearly just an attraction pushed in because launches were the hot new thing. Saw and Thirteen are actually much better quality attractions than Rita.

The marketing approach could have nothing to do with Merlin, given that Chessington don't join in. It could just be a natural evolution, or they got someone new in who started it all. We just don't know.

I actually think Saw and Thirteen are very stereotypically Tussauds, but people aren't seeing it because they are hellbent on making Merlin the bad guy. Rita, Stealth, Spinball and Dragon's Fury are the oddballs, in my opinion.

I personally think that the blip which included those rides was a natural progression. With Thorpe doing so well off the park of building pure thrill rides, I think the company stepped back on the creative side to see how things would fair. Merlin actually, if anything, appear to have brought that back. It's still not as clever as 90's Alton Towers investments, but I don't think it's possible to go back to that for budgetary reasons and the fact it's all shrouded in nostalgia.

"plan for the spectacular, budget for good enough"

Yeah, even I agree with this. I think the whole plan for the spectacular is a facade built to face off Disney in their own little bubble, to be honest. I don't think any of them believe it. To be honest, their initial visions are hardly spectacular. It's like the whole thing with Swarm and the fences - they go for themes which are cheap to build by default. They then talk about it in such a way to hide that. With Merlin the creativity is confined to "what can we do with x amount" from the word go. There is no initial freedom. I think that's what is missing from old Tussauds. But I think we see this accross all kinds of things - film, tv, music maybe? People have stopped being clever because there's apparently less need to be. You don't need to make amazing costumes anymore, just have a crappy 3D graphics monster. It's the same thing. I think were Tussauds still Tussauds, we'd be in the same place.

 

[T0M]

I'm hearing that this ride will be sponsored by Guinness?

 

[Nemesis Inferno]

Mid 2000s were when Tussauds got brought by Dubai Investment Company, who wanted max profit for minimal investment, hence the cheap and pathetic rethemes, dodgy ride placements and generally poor years that followed... These were the people who thought Chessie need a hotel for example... If I recall they took over 2004, need to double check that, but yeah, you can tell the difference between the Tussauds eras...

I think Merlin are better than DIC... But that's not exactly hard really... Whilst Saw and Thirteen aren't anywhere near rides like Colossus, Inferno, Oblivion and Nemesis for sheer creative value (though Inferno is very much plonked as well), looking at Raptor, Krake and Swarm, Merlin are certainly turning a corner in respects...

 

[scw55]

Nothing says interdenominational creature like a pint of Irish bitter.
If this is true, I hope they place the product advertisement sensibly. Why would you build a ride that will rely so much on atmosphere and setting only for it all to be killed by a random Guinness poster/mural? They couldn't get away with saying Guinness funds Phalanx either.

 

[Robbie]

They're not going to have a family ride sponsored by an alcoholic drink.

 

[T0M]

It will be subtle, with the Guinness name itself virtually absent. It will utilise the dark, slow settling concepts, from what I understand.

 

[Martyn B]

Some twat has clearly got too much time on their hands.

 

[Nemesis Inferno]

 

[furie]

This reminds of Infusion keeping the Tizer marketing from when it was TraumaTizer and adding in Vimto as a secondary sponsor:

 

[Ben]

Dragon's Fury and Spinball, whilst good, fall into the realm of "poor attraction quality. And Stealth. They lack the creativity, investment of effort, thought and planning... I dunno WHY, but like Furie says, it's like they went through a faze of "QUICK GET ANYTHING THROW IT IN".
...

I actually think Saw and Thirteen are very stereotypically Tussauds, but people aren't seeing it because they are hellbent on making Merlin the bad guy. Rita, Stealth, Spinball and Dragon's Fury are the oddballs, in my opinion.
.

See, I really like Fury. It's perfect for Chessington (ignore the fact its reliability is ****, that's not the point here), and it fits into the park and the area they created around it wonderfully. Spinball is smaller, and a filler ride at Alton, but, it was still big and had an area and stuff to go with it. For just a filler ride...

And then I really like Stealth now. It does what it was meant to do, fit in the park's audience perfectly, looked good whilst being simple, and yeah, was great. The area's a bit simple and stuff, but, it works because that's all they ever pushed it as. I'm worried Swarm, like Saw and Th13teen will pretend it's this engaging experience with amazing themeing, and just won't be.

OHH. That's what makes a Merlin ride feel like a Merlin ride. It's the same feeling you get when there's something warm dripping down your face and you realise you'll have a reputation as the school slut by Monday, that what was promised and what they said would be, was so far from what they created, that you're totally disappointed. Stealth is what Stealth was always going to be. A simple theme for a simple ride. And I think Dragon's Fury is really good, so

Really, little bit surprised you think Fury is so cheap Joey. Remember, it's the whole area, and I LOVE how it interacts with the other buildings and stuff. For me, that is totally Tussauds.

There's another topic in here somewhere, I think.

 

[SaiyanHajime]

I think Benin hit the nail on the head really. I'd forgotten all about DIC.

See, I really like Fury. It's perfect for Chessington (ignore the fact its reliability is , that's not the point here), and it fits into the park and the area they created around it wonderfully.

Fury as a ride is theoretically perfect and I'm a big fan of TRUE family coasters, of which Fury is a rare and spectacular example... It entertains people of a very wide age group. It's not too intense, nor is it too tame.

The area though? Terrible.

The queue is one of the worst queue lines in the world. In fact, I can't think of a single queue which is worse. Raptor probably comes close, but at least that is shaded. A queue is where you spend the majority of your time on any attraction, it matters when it's that bad.

Frazzle the dragon. Ripped from the Dragon Falls site and poorly rethemed/placed. For those who don't remember what he was like before... http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... RZNw#t=61s

The dead end Land of the Dragon's was a good idea in theory, in practise it's dreadfully impractical.

The land is blocked off by temporary fencing. It looks temporary. It always has done. It lacks impact, it feels out of place.

The station building theming is exceptionally limited to the point where there might as well be none. There's little to no queue theming and it's very, very poor standard from cheap materials. The theming around the area is mostly the same, with the plywood towers covered in textural paint coming apart. Compare that to the theming on say Colossus, which is barely showing age 10 years on.

The other attractions for the area were poor decisions. They are difficult to manage (playhouse and capers) or don't receive a lot of custom. (Galleon)

There's endless other reasons that make Fury a poor, but it's predominantly the creative side of it we're interested in here. It's very un-Tussauds. There is no clever concept, no creative twist, no linking the theme to the ride. Nothing. It's just a coaster irrelevantly themed to dragons for no apparent reason.

It's interaction with the area is the only "Tussauds" element to it. But overall, it's quite an oddball. It is very cheap and nasty. I love the ride, don't get me wrong, but the thought and effort was not as it should have been.

Same with Stealth really. It was promised to be more, it DOESNT do what it says on the tin. It made far more sense in the plans... Amity Speedway, and wth Rita Thunder Rock Ralley... It's just like, eugh?

My favourite thing about Tussauds/Merlin is the concepts... Oblivion and Air were the best examples along with Colossus... Inferno was a blip, but it's still present in Swarm and Raptor, Krake and even Saw and Thirteen. Rita, Stealth, Dragon's Fury lack that. Spinball has it, but it's downfall is poor placement and it just not being the right mood for Alton in general.

 

[Martyn B]

I agree with Ben, I love Fury and I think it, and the whole area fits in really well with Chessington. Compare it to say, Rita, Spinball, and the Flume....

But then I also agree with what you're saying about Saw and Thirteen, they both feel like good quality attractions, although they're not actually good to ride, but they just have that good feel to them. Flip it around, and I really like Rita and Spinball, but they feel low down on the 'quality attraction' scale to me.

Back to Saw, and it if wasn't for the pain, I'd probably really like it. And I think Thirteen really fits in well at Alton, and is only ruined by them trims and poor marketing. So if it wasn't for a couple of minor, but serious issues, I'd really like both of them. I dont really know where I'm going with this, but...

 

[Ollie]

The queue is one of the worst queue lines in the world. In fact, I can't think of a single queue which is worse.

Really? I can think of LOADS that are worse. All I have to do is mention Shockwave and that comment becomes instantly invalid as Fury's queue isn't a multi-level, indoor, piss and graffiti covered bus shelter.

Anyway this isn't what the topics about.
Im still looking forward to this ride. I like the fact that we don't know EVERYTHING about the ride like we usually do. Even if it's nothing great, the mystery element around it is one I enjoy and having any ride is better than the crappy pay per go climbing walls and stuff they previously had there.

I love Extremis as well and go round the whole Dungeons sometimes just to have another ride so even if this is just a simple drop tower I'll still enjoy it as the drop is bloody powerful.