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Phantasialand | F. L. Y. | Vekoma Launched Flying Coaster | 2020

Nitefly said:
The only perpetual downside to his videos is that Shawn does come across as a bit of a boy scout. To counteract this, I like to imagine that he turns off the camera and then immediately snorts a load of cocaine. It really does make the videos more enjoyable.
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Sorry, I know it’s an old post, given up checking this thread regularly...

But I’ve just got to say that is the best comment I’ve read on here, no any forum, for ages!!! LOL is used too often and too loosely, but in this case it was genuine and uncontrollable.

Shawn on coke ???? Don’t do drugs kids!
 
Hi everyone. New guy.
I‘ve spend the past days reading these pages so now it‘s time for my first post.

I like what I see so far at Rookburgh. I like the tracks, the layout, the theming and the look of the hotel entry.

The opening date discussion is a thing on its own. I can only say that I feel Rookburgh won‘t and shouldn’t be opened until the 2021 season kickoff and I hope they‘ll wait until then. PHL lost some time due to the COVID-19 issues but now they kinda have the time on their side. They can finish the theming without rush until next year. Opening this year would be a mistake imo. I prefer them to spend 8 more months on the little and big details and present a fully finished great area with a big boom by then.

Looking at it from the marketing perspective, I can see that this is a fishy situation for them. Advertising to the general public has been done. They presented the concept, they teased it with a promo clip and a well done newspaper. So people all over the globe know what is going on there. So what else to do if they‘re simply not done building it nor willing to share any info? Sure, they could drop small official updates and hints to keep us enthusiasts satisfied (like „hey look, you‘re gonna be launched upwards!“). Would have been their chance to actually communicate with the nerds. A fan service is an important part of marketing.

But hey...I do respect the method of keeping it low (or silent). They know why they are doing it like that. And we‘re discussing and speculating anyway. And we see the up-bending launch track anyway, thanks to the people lurking around the construction site and taking pictures and reporting when they see a support screw being replaced.

I‘m calmly excited to see new development around Rookburgh until its opening. I‘m patient, and I trust in PHL to deliver a spectacular experience. Really looking forward.
 
There's nothing to say we won't still have Covid-related restrictions next April. I know most of us are hoping that we are "back to normal" but considering every possible perspective, we could still be living with restrictions next year, especially as a (WHO approved) vaccine is not likely to be widely distributed into the community until estimated: summer 2021.

Obviously if trials are successful and production is fast enough and vaccine uptake is high enough, we could be back to normal sooner than then, but equally it could take even longer. No one knows at this point. I don't even know yet if I will be comfortable with taking a vaccine produced in such a short time-scale.

At the end of the day my point is that they shouldn't hold out to open Rookburgh until April 2021 and expect to have a grand opening ceremony; physical distancing, masks etc may still be necessary. If that is the plan they would just be setting themselves up for a fall if restrictions are still required. At some point it becomes financially unviable to have a completed area sitting there being unused for the public to enjoy.

Regardless of whether restrictions are in place, rookburgh will generate ticket sales, a hype around Phantasialand and will increase hotel bookings and those staying on resort. The park doesn't "need" to wait until restrictions are no longer in place because the new area will increase park capacity and will drive profits regardless of the number of people allowed in the park. The park has been very busy this summer, but still by no means sold out every day, and cheap tickets are going for September-november time. Once rookburgh opens, a higher proportion of people will be willing to pay full price to visit the park and they won't have to offer discounted tickets as sales will be strong anyway, hence more money generated. And if annual passes aren't reactivated for unlimited entry (the park says they won't be until there are no more visitor limits- so could be months!), annual pass holders are likely to fork out for tickets and hotel overnight stays when normally they would pay less money per visit as they are visiting with their annual pass.

I'm sure the park will be aware of all of this; I reckon they will be preparing a grand opening ceremony, but will also be preparing to open without a grand opening ceremony. The big question is: you can control the numbers to the park but how can you control the numbers into rookburgh? Practically 85% of the park will want to be in rook burgh at a time(5% klugheim, 5% river quest, 3% Chiapas and 2% in rest of park), which will make physical distancing practically impossible. Is it possible you can set up a virtual queue system for rookburgh with a one way system in and out to prevent overcrowding? I'm sure these will all be things being discussed behind the scenes as no one will be able to tell the situation regarding restrictions come next year. I personally think a one way system around the area may taint the experience, and not being able to spend unlimited time soaking up the atmosphere would also dampen the experience, but it may be the only option to get the area up and running.

The area is still under construction. It is looking closer to being completed, perhaps by end of October time it will be ready, and we already know fly is signed off by TÜV. Restrictions will definitely be in place come November but perhaps they will look to offer an exclusive Charles Lindbergh hotel package with exclusive evening access to rookburgh for wintertraum, where only guests of the hotel can go and experience the area before anyone else? This could be a marketing strategy to increase park profits as it would really rake in the cash as it would be the only way of experiencing the area before a full launch to the public when restrictions are finally removed. It is probably something I would potentially be interested in myself.

It's a really difficult one, as the park aren't just looking to open a new coaster, they are looking to open a whole new themed world, which is going to be incredibly popular and crowded upon reopening; just look at how successful klugheim was in the opening year. If restrictions are still in place next year then a grand opening and a crowded rook burgh is not an option, so how do they get around the restrictions? And if the restrictions are still in place next year then what is the point in holding off until next year to open? They might as well open the area when it's ready, which could potentially be in time for wintertraum?

It's just down to how the park have chosen to play this out. Wait and hope for no restrictions next year, find a way to open the area with restrictions or market it as a hotel package with exclusive access to the area before anyone else. It's anyone's guess at this moment, but I predict there won't be a soft-opening as the area would still be chaos even if its not officially advertised.
 
I was curious if the added area of Rookburgh would actually increase the capacity of Phantasialand in a meaningful way, since a lot of people always suggest this would be a good way to boost sales.

To find this out, we need the size of PHL, the size of Rookburgh and the current capacity of PHL.

The size of PHL:
I decided to get two measurements, the official size (including attractions, parking, offices, etc.) and the actual size of the park itself (only the area with attractions) by measuring it out in Google Earth.
Official size: 28ha
Actual size: 10,03ha (excluding RB)

The size of Rookburgh:
This was relatively straight forward, I just measured out the area in Google Earth.
Size of Rookburgh: 0,81ha

The current capacity of PHL:
This was a tricky one. I called Phantasialand to ask how many people are allowed in the park, however the nice lady on the phone said, that she doesn't know that and that this also wouldn't be communicated with her. The maximum allowed number of people in the park is individually agreed by the park and the Gesundheitsamt. So I had to make an educated guess.

After a bit of searching, I was able to find the max capacity of Holiday Park and Movie Park, 8000 people and 7000 people respectively.
Dividing the officially stated area by the maximum number of allowed visitors in the park gave me a number between 50qm/visitor and 70qm/visitor.
I went with 50qm/visitor, since I like the idea of PHL being busy.
If we divide the official size of PHL by 50qm we get (28ha/50qm) = 5.600 visitors
Keep in mind that this can be inaccurate, since I'm pretty sure that the Gesundheitsamt cares about the actual area inside the park that is actually accessible by guests. Maybe Holiday Park has a bigger parking lot and more areas that guests cannot access, but we don't know that.

If we now assume that the Gesundheitsamt really only cares about the area inside the park, we now want to find out how many square meters one guest has inside the park.
To do that we divide the actual park area by the maximum allowed number of visitors in the park (10,03ha/5.600) = 17,9qm/visitor

Now we now that if you want to admit one more guest into the park you need an additional 17,9 square meters.

Rookburgh is 0,81 hectares big, dividing by 17,9qm should give us the number of visitors added to the capacity of PHL!
The result is (drumroll please!?): 453 more visitors!

This would boost the capacity by 8% to a maximum of 6.053 visitors!
When everyone pays the full admission fee that gives PHL an additional 23.782,5€ in income per day.

Is that worth it? I don't know, I'm not an economist.
However I read that on the first of May 2001 (the day Gebirgsbahn and Grand-Canyon Bahn burned down) there were allegedly 20.000 people in the park.
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On a different note, during my research I found out that PHL still offers strongly discounted tickets until the end of november, with some being as low as 23€ (!), I don't think that if you want to open a new theme-world and expect a full park everyday after opening, you would offer tickets that cheap.
 
ynnckstrm said:
I was curious if the added area of Rookburgh would actually increase the capacity of Phantasialand in a meaningful way, since a lot of people always suggest this would be a good way to boost sales.

To find this out, we need the size of PHL, the size of Rookburgh and the current capacity of PHL.

The size of PHL:
I decided to get two measurements, the official size (including attractions, parking, offices, etc.) and the actual size of the park itself (only the area with attractions) by measuring it out in Google Earth.
Official size: 28ha
Actual size: 10,03ha (excluding RB)

The size of Rookburgh:
This was relatively straight forward, I just measured out the area in Google Earth.
Size of Rookburgh: 0,81ha

The current capacity of PHL:
This was a tricky one. I called Phantasialand to ask how many people are allowed in the park, however the nice lady on the phone said, that she doesn't know that and that this also wouldn't be communicated with her. The maximum allowed number of people in the park is individually agreed by the park and the Gesundheitsamt. So I had to make an educated guess.

After a bit of searching, I was able to find the max capacity of Holiday Park and Movie Park, 8000 people and 7000 people respectively.
Dividing the officially stated area by the maximum number of allowed visitors in the park gave me a number between 50qm/visitor and 70qm/visitor.
I went with 50qm/visitor, since I like the idea of PHL being busy.
If we divide the official size of PHL by 50qm we get (28ha/50qm) = 5.600 visitors
Keep in mind that this can be inaccurate, since I'm pretty sure that the Gesundheitsamt cares about the actual area inside the park that is actually accessible by guests. Maybe Holiday Park has a bigger parking lot and more areas that guests cannot access, but we don't know that.

If we now assume that the Gesundheitsamt really only cares about the area inside the park, we now want to find out how many square meters one guest has inside the park.
To do that we divide the actual park area by the maximum allowed number of visitors in the park (10,03ha/5.600) = 17,9qm/visitor

Now we now that if you want to admit one more guest into the park you need an additional 17,9 square meters.

Rookburgh is 0,81 hectares big, dividing by 17,9qm should give us the number of visitors added to the capacity of PHL!
The result is (drumroll please!?): 453 more visitors!

This would boost the capacity by 8% to a maximum of 6.053 visitors!
When everyone pays the full admission fee that gives PHL an additional 23.782,5€ in income per day.

Is that worth it? I don't know, I'm not an economist.
However I read that on the first of May 2001 (the day Gebirgsbahn and Grand-Canyon Bahn burned down) there were allegedly 20.000 people in the park.
----------

On a different note, during my research I found out that PHL still offers strongly discounted tickets until the end of november, with some being as low as 23€ (!), I don't think that if you want to open a new theme-world and expect a full park everyday after opening, you would offer tickets that cheap.
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Say your calculations and estimates are accurate, even entry tickets alone would be in the region of an extra €5-6 million per year turnover. But don't forget there is a new hotel and potentially filling the other two hotels that bit more too. Then there is extra income with food outlets and merchandise to consider.

Definitely worth it if the park turns over in the region of an extra €10 million per year.

So far Phantasialand is the only German theme park I have visited. Mostly because of Taron. I won't be the only Brit.
They clearly wanted to repeat that success.
 
It's a nice set of calculations, but your estimates about capacity are way off.

For example: Movie Park Germany said in a recent Q&A session on their Instagram that they're allowed 10,000 people on park whilst Covid measures are in place, but are currently limiting themselves to 8,000 people.

A park's capacity isn't just down to space either. It will be down to things such as how quickly they can clear the park in case of an emergency. In that sense, Phantasialand are well placed: they have multiple entrances to the park for day visitors, plus their hotel entrances, which Rookburgh would add to. They also have other emergency exits too I imagine. So even under current restrictions, I'd expect the park's capacity would be around the 8,000-10,000 people at the moment.

Regardless, opening a new area brings in people. Those people will spent money on entrance tickets. They'll almost definitely spend money on food. They may spend money on merchandise. People will stay in the hotel. All that money adds up.

If the area is ready and they can open it, I honestly don't see why you wouldn't open it.
 
JoshC. said:
A park's capacity isn't just down to space either. It will be down to things such as how quickly they can clear the park in case of an emergency.
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He's not really talking about the parks capacity but about the capacity with the current Corona restrictions. With these restritctions the capacity is mostly about space.

The parks normal capacity is much higher. On the day of the Gebirgsbahn fire in 2001 there were about 20.000 people in the park.
 
This is all under the assumption that the park will fill to capacity every single day. Seems like your calculations are busywork for the sake of busywork. The park is still a full day of activities, it’s not going to harm them in the slightest to postpone the opening of the new area.
 
I have heard their current “corona capacity” is 10,000 per day, so higher than the amount let in at movie park.

No evidence on that though, just what I’ve heard through the grapevine, but the park does appear to be extremely over-filled.
 
Nitefly said:
Should be heading there mid-week next week. Any idea on wait times? Not horrible hopefully?
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They run most rides at max or close to maximum capacity, and still have 60+ minutes on major rides. So yes, expect horrible queue times. Never visit Phantasialand during the holiday season.
 
Trax said:
They run most rides at max or close to maximum capacity, and still have 60+ minutes on major rides. So yes, expect horrible queue times. Never visit Phantasialand during the holiday season.
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It’s not holiday season really though anymore, NRW schools go back today so it should be quieter from next week. A bit quieter anyway.

I would expect river quest 60-90 minutes, chiapas 45 mins, taron 30 mins and everything else 15 or less.

I imagine the park will feel busy though with crowded pathways as it’s small in footprint.
 
Nitefly said:
Should be heading there mid-week next week. Any idea on wait times? Not horrible hopefully?
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Even better:

Phantasialand - Wartezeiten LIVE - Wartezeiten.APP

Erlebe das Phantasialand (Deutschland) wie nie zuvor! Mit unserer Live-Übersicht verpasst Du nie wieder Deine Lieblingsattraktionen. Sieh auf einen Blick, wie sich die Wartezeiten entwickeln und nutze die Statistiken, um Deine Route optimal zu planen. Mit den Wetterdaten der Region bist Du immer...
www.freizeitpark-wartezeit.de www.freizeitpark-wartezeit.de

He also displays extended statistics, which is really helpful, if you're planning a trip.

Phantasialand - Juni 2023 - Statistiken - Wartezeiten.APP - Phantasialand - Wartezeiten LIVE

Erlebe das Phantasialand (Deutschland) wie nie zuvor! Mit unseren aktuellen Statistiken verpasst Du nie wieder Deine Lieblingsattraktionen. Sieh auf einen Blick, wie sich die Wartezeiten über alle Attraktionen hinweg entwickeln und nutze die Informationen, um Deine Route optimal zu planen. Mit...
www.freizeitpark-wartezeit.de www.freizeitpark-wartezeit.de

Keep in mind that until yesterday there were holidays in NRW and until mid-next week holidays will end in Rheinland-Pfalz and Hessen, two bordering Bundesländer, so crowds should be much much smaller by then.
 
I dont think F.L.Y will open this year. I spent a couple of days at Phantasialand this week. I befriened and chatted with a couple different employees and everyone said the park hasn't toold them anything about Rookburgh and it just dosnt get mentioned. Altough all seemed very excited about it. Most importantly Hotel Matamba employees hadnt been told anything and if a opening was near I am guessing the park would already have started recruiting some existing employees to the new hotel so that they dont start with a completely rookie team. If not even the employees know much about the new area then surely the opening isnt very close.
 
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Of course the employees aren’t going to divulge exclusive information to the guests. They would probably get fired.

Back in January I was talking to reception staff in ling bao about it, they were very nice but didn’t give anything away.

It means nothing. They might not have been told anything by overheads about the progress of the project, but even if they have, they aren’t going to be giving that information away.

Makes no difference to opening date, staff will not be telling guests the tiniest bit of information about this project.
 
I still find it wierd to emphasise "I dont know. They havnt toold us anything. I am just as eager as you are" instead of just saying "I dont know" and this came from multiple employees. I agree, nobody is going to tell when it is going to open but just the way they answered actually seemed like they genuinly havnt been told. At this point we are really just speculating.
 
Thanks for sharing your experience. As they presumably haven't employed actors for the hotel service ;) you're probably right and most of them really don't know anything about it. However, we basically know that opening is not around the corner (constructions site not yet there, no announcement and booking for hotel CL possible yet) and I wouldn't know why they should tell their staff several month in advance that they are going to hotel CL.
 
And it‘s not given that the staff will be moved from Ling Bao or Matamba to Charles Lindbergh at all. Maybe they will hire new staff for that hotel.
 
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