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The "do you count it?" list

Peet

Giga Poster
The frankly ridiculous debate about the Vekoma cred/creds replacing Mindbender made me think it would be interesting to list out all the things that may or may not count as creds or 2 creds (including some commonly debated creds) so here goes.

For me the test really is how you would describe it to a non-enthusiast. For example would you tell them that Galaxyland are building two new coasters? For me that's a No, so it's one cred. Would you describe Tower Coaster as a roller coaster? Yes I would so I count it. Anyway here's the list, copy/paste it and say whether you do or would count these, feel free to add categories I may have missed:

- New Vekoma at Galaxyland 1 or 2? - 1
- Gold Rush at DMP (2 cycles on the same track) 1 or 2? - 1
- Moebius coasters 1 or 2? - 1
- Twin coasters 1 or 2? - 2
- Count clones as new creds? - Yes
- Relocations count as new creds? - No
- Re-tracks (eg Hulk, Nemesis etc) - No
- Major change eg. Top Thrill Dragster/2 - Yes
- Disk-Os - No
- Alpine coasters (gravity) - Yes
- Powered alpine coasters eg. Tower Coaster - Yes
- Bobsled/toboggan/SoRo alpine coasters - No
- Ridge Riders - No
- Ghost trains with drops eg Devil's Den - No
 
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New Vekoma at Galaxyland - 1, but you can ride either side to get the credit
Gold Rush - 1
Möbius - 1
Duelling - 2
Clones - yes
Relocations - no
Hulk/Nemesis style retracks - no
TTD & TT2 - 2
Diskos - no
Alpine coasters - no
Tower Coaster - haven't ridden and therefore haven't decided
Bobsled/toboggan/SoRo - no
Ridge riders - no
Ghost trains with drops - no
Butterflies - no
 
For me the test really is how you would describe it to a non-enthusiast.
This has always been my key philosophy, enthusiast rules are arbitrary and biased.

It's still imperfect, there are some you'd probably need to take a large sample size as they'd divide even public opinion.
Some that spring to mind:

https://rcdb.com/4332.htm
The Seuss thing at IoA
The rides that fell to the great water coaster purge of 2020, like Gardaland.

Agree with the list.
 
Here's one I had never heard anyone discuss before and couldn't decide for myself if I should count it; Adventureville at Adventure Island.

It's made of basically entirely coaster hardware.
It's driven by drive tyres.
It's got banking and elevation change.
But I've never heard of anyone counting it as a coaster before.
 
- New Vekoma at Galaxyland - 1
- Gold Rush at DMP - 1
- Moebius coasters - If I have to queue twice to ride the whole thing, I'm counting it as 2.
- Twin coasters - 2
- Count clones as new creds - Yes
- Relocations count as new creds - No
- Re-tracks - If the supports also get replaced, yes because at that point I view it as a clone built in the same place as the original, otherwise no.
- Major change eg. Top Thrill Dragster/2 - Yes
- Disk-Os - Haven't ridden a Disk-O and don't really intend to, but I'll cross that bridge if I do go on one at some point
- Alpine coasters - Yes
- Powered alpine coasters - Yes
- Bobsled/toboggan/SoRo alpine coasters - Yes
- Ridge Riders - No
- Ghost trains with drops eg Devil's Den - No
 
- New Vekoma at Galaxyland - 1
- Moebius coasters - If I have to queue twice to ride the whole thing, I'm counting it as 2.
Isn't having to queue twice to ride the whole thing true for both of these rides? If you ride the junior first your still have to queue again to ride the adult one at galaxyland

A great example of why this is so arbitrary and doesn't matter in the slightest.

So with that in mind. All your opinions are wrong and so are mine
 
Isn't the rumoured way the Galaxyland coaster is going to work that it will have 2 queues, 1 for the family shuttle mode and 1 for the thrill full layout mode, so there would be a way to ride the full layout while only queuing once.

I'd view it as the same as that one Moebius coaster that has 2 stations and queues, but you loop around twice, riding the whole thing no matter which station you queue for.
 
At the risk of my own sanity, I'm going to attempt to justify my answers. I'm also going to stick a * next to examples I've not ridden one of as I don't think I can have too strong of an opinion without the actual experience.

- New Vekoma at Galaxyland 1 or 2?* - 1
...but you only need to ride one mode. Any multi-experience ride on the same track will probably always be 1 cred with only 1 variant needed for me because where do you draw the line? On a boomerang you ride slightly different sections of track depending on your row. What about backwards-facing rows/trains? Spinning cars? I refuse to deal with it, they're all 1.

- Gold Rush at DMP (2 cycles on the same track) 1 or 2?* - 1
...but you only need to ride 1 cycle. See reasons above.

- Möbius coasters 1 or 2? - 1
...but you only need to ride 1 cycle. I'm much more on the fence about this because there's no repeated track between the cycles and it's basically two coasters that just so happen to be joined together. I've only ridden 1 and I rode both sides as insurance against future changes of heart.

- Twin coasters 1 or 2? - 2
If you moved side B to another park (which you could, unlike with a Möbius), it would be seen as a clone/mirror and almost everyone would count it. I don't really care whether it has separate entrances or is marketed as one attraction or whatever.

- Count clones as new creds? - Yes
Different physical ride in a different place, new cred. Number of unique models ridden is another valid/interesting list, separate to my main cred list.

- Relocations count as new creds? - No
If you moved the ride 3 feet to the left it clearly wouldn't be a new cred. Extrapolate from there. Plus following a travelling ride around the fair circuit and counting it in every location would become insane.

- Re-tracks (eg Hulk, Nemesis etc) - No
Unless the entire ride is demolished and a brand new clone put in place, it's just maintenance. Well-maintained woodies have major track replacement regularly. How would you keep track?

- Major change eg. Top Thrill Dragster/2* - Maybe
Depends on the change I reckon. Though my logic above would suggest any track re-use is unforgivable, I do also think if you just happen to use the same steel to create a completely different ride that should probably count. Unsure what I'd do with TTD/TT2, I'd have to have ridden both.

- Disk-Os - No
Flat ride. I'm pretty generous with each of these categories individually, but the combination of powered, shuttle, no direction changes, and not being seen as one by most of the public is enough to rule these out.

- Alpine coasters (gravity)* - Yes
Yeah, they're just brakeman-operated coasters where I'm the brakeman.

- Powered alpine coasters eg. Tower Coaster* - Maybe
I think I'd count a tower coaster on the basis I count powered and think I'd count alpine. But I'd have to ride one I think.

- Bobsled/toboggan/SoRo alpine coasters - No
I don't count the 1 toboggan I did as a kid, mostly on the basis I wasn't (much of) an enthusiast back then and I don't think it being a coaster ever crossed my mind. You have to draw the line somewhere between hill coaster and slide and, for now, I'm arbitrarily drawing it here.

- Ridge Riders* - No
Had to look this one up. Give me a break.

- Ghost trains with drops eg Devil's Den - No
This, and a few other bits I've done like Seuss Trolley, Dudley Do-Right, Adventureville, etc, is where I think all objective criteria go out the window and the "spirit of the roller coaster" comes into play. You can devise any objective criteria you want to disqualify certain tracked rides from being coasters, but just because an example doesn't technically fall foul of any them, if it's not supposed to be a coaster, then it's not going on my list of coasters. Ghost trains and water rides that coast for a single dip are not roller coasters. Tracked/dark rides that happen to use coaster track are not roller coasters unless there's a non-trivial section that is clearly intended to be a roller coaster.

This last one is the reason mine, and probably everyone's, list is contradictory and stupid and this whole debate isn't worth 819 words of your time. If you put Adventureville on a car park with no theming, would I be more likely to consider it a very silly and slightly shameful cred? If you put Clown Coaster at Energylandia in a themed building and used it to create a dark ride, would I no longer count it? I don't know. My head hurts.
 
- New Vekoma at Galaxyland 1 or 2? - 1
I'll double check this if I ever get to Edmonton and see what all the fuss is about but presumably not. I'll want to do all available options.

- Gold Rush at DMP (2 cycles on the same track) 1 or 2? - 1
Don't need to do all versions to count but wouldn't you anyway if coasters are a thing to you. 1 train op will hamper this on a busy day.

- Moebius coasters 1 or 2? - 1
Don't need to do both sides to count but wouldn't you anyway if coasters are a thing to you.

Side waffle: Who cares if they miss an inch of track like transfer or some bizarre edge case where you did X with the load & unload station not riding the few meters connecting the stations - but not when they started just using one section. Any track will do although hopefully I'm never in a situation where my only ride gets evaced on the lift hill. I theory I'd count a roll back if it was my only ever ride.

- Twin coasters 1 or 2? - 2
Stupid La Ronde will bell end guests being too busy to do both sides of Monstre, and Colossus only running one train that day.

- Count clones as new creds? - Yes
This hardcore mode is too intense for me.

- Relocations count as new creds? - No
I was so pleased to find photographic evidence I've been on both wild mice at Bobbejaanland and then years later one is in Madrid for my visit. Still (re)ride them.

If you moved the ride 3 feet to the left it clearly wouldn't be a new cred. Extrapolate from there. Plus following a travelling ride around the fair circuit and counting it in every location would become insane.

Exactly. Imagine counting Olympia Looping every time it went to Oktoberfest & Prater, then Munich Looping at each Winter Wonderland. There's literally only one existence of these. And that dive machine in China being moved to potentially reset the 20 years bureaucratic tomfoolery.

- Re-tracks (eg Hulk, Nemesis etc) - No
I was going to but decided not to in April 2024. Because its made up in our heads I can make Reborn and Hyperia the same milestone. There's also Vol D'care at Asterix that doesn't get spoken about which could trip people up who didn't know. The triggers broom argument on wooden coasters to me is yes its the same coaster. A different day/month/year/decade can result in a totally different rider experience but they are all the same one in different moods. Eurosat changed trains, theme and track at the same time but I don't think combining factors changes it.

- Major change eg. Top Thrill Dragster/2 - Yes
Has anyone ever questioned RMC conversions? Anything else is case by case - TT2 is different enough, so is Kennywoods major course correction. Not for wooden coasters that had a drop mellowed out or added an inversion (it is cool to see old track sections buried in the wooden supports). If that's minor then so was the Mystery Mine tweak. Lightning Rod before and after the lift hill and wooden to steel track. All this Titan Track being added. RMC updating Intamin, Premier Updating Arrow, Morgan completely changing Arrow.

- Disk-Os - No
I do like to add to coaster-count when reasonable.

- Alpine coasters (gravity) - Yes
Really want to do one with bunny hills without making the extra effort. All are valid.

- Powered alpine coasters eg. Tower Coaster - I suppose
Don't see myself needing to decide and wont be targeting one just to get a plus 1. Would like to happen across one to try it out.

- Bobsled/toboggan/SoRo alpine coasters - No
Even though powered, alpine or the trough bobsleds are acceptable, mashing all 3 is not allowed.

- Ridge Riders - No
A what now? The rail guided zip lines that = no?

- Ghost trains with drops eg Devil's Den - No
I did at first because its absurd so why not get technically bent out of shape. But when the joke is over, gum wall is too horrid and the switch are in a bare empty un-themed shed then nah. Some ghost trains have track like a big apple and I've been one one that coasted for a blink of an eye at the end.

Also

+ Different trains on the same track. Like a stand up converted to floorless or the Togo that changes at lunchtime. 1 for whatever you get

+ Compounding relocation then eventually converting with a name change and snazzy paint job is still 1 and you don't need to have done all versions.

+ Again with the go kart down a mountain road. I don't know, perhaps =rand() can decide this for me every time time I load my sheet.

+ The piddling different between a Mack water coaster that some websites count, and another Mack water coaster they don't. They all count, come on now, don't exclude coaster cause they are a little different. We all know the one Im talking about right, the one not on this page.

+ If you count both the above 2, would you question a Jinma chute ride. I feel like there is some inconsistency here.

+ Coasters that have a train or car backwards for a season like Batman and Swarm, or always like DC Rivals. Fury launching both forwards and backwards. Icon and ENSŌ / Steel Taipan. 1 whatever version(s) you've done.

+ Bayernkurves.

! Blackpool has so many question marks in one place. 3 independent track steeple chase; 100 year old wooden coasters; various trains that haven't always had lap bars; mobius; double whammy with a relocated clone. Even the pier next door got a replacement clone mouse that delivered the same experience as before. If you could tell me how they differed then you were not drinking enough on a night out in Blackpool which is the stock experience.
 
At first I was like "Why wouldn't Tower Coaster be a cred?" But then I realized y'all were talking about some powered alpine coaster thing that I had to google and not that SBF nightmare.

I'm not gonna answer all of these, but I will say that for me what counts and what doesn't is largely vibes based. I don't fault people for counting alpine coasters but I don't because it feels more like a sporting activity like ziplining to me than a roller coaster. A Sunkid butterfly feels more like playground equipment than a roller coaster. And I'm even a bit unsure if I wanna count dueling coasters as separate creds. That depends a bit. If I've only ridden the blue side of Joris en de Draak at Efteling twice, for example, I've gotten largely the same experience as I would've if I went on both sides each once. So Joris en de Draak in it's totality is one cred that I got when I rode the first side, I wouldn't add a +1 for the other side too, they're one experience. Not far removed from a möbius ride. On the other hand Battlestar Galactica at USS or Dueling Dragons at Guangzhou Sunac Land the two sides have very different layouts and completely different seating arrangements etc. so they're very distinctly two different experiences. In terms of that speculated Galaxyland ride, I'll compare it to a Star Flyer or 360 Pendulum ride. Those sometimes have two different cycles, one for views, one for intensity or for the pendulums, non-inverting swing and full 360 rotation. You've still ridden the ride, just on a different program.

I would count a Skyline Skywarp as a coaster, especially Harley Quinn because they have fully articulated coaster bogies. A Larson Loop does not, it's just a solid ring within another solid ring, like a big wheel bearing only one part of the round bearing has seats on it. Zamperla Disk'os of both kinds I wouldn't, because the gondola is far too big to have it feel like a coaster and the arc of movement feels like a flat ride, and the platform the gondola is on is only articulated for the specific range of movements it does, you couldn't put it on another "layout" and it'd work. Now that RES Rides Wave Twist that opened at New York's Adventureland on the other hand is a lot more complex, it needs to navigate a banked curve, but given that, again, the gondola is massive and has to axes of powered rotation it leans very heavy on flat ride regardless and importantly RES themselves call it a flat ride. Although Zac Spins and Free Spins don't move horizontally, the fact they're fully gravity driven with multiple different sizes of vertical curves/drops/whatever fully clears them just automatically.

This was interesting for me:

Here's one I had never heard anyone discuss before and couldn't decide for myself if I should count it; Adventureville at Adventure Island.

This should count as a cred IMO if people are gonna count Casey Jr. at Disneyland Paris. Adventureville is built more like a traditional coaster than Casey Jr. since it runs normal coaster rails and it's driven by gravity and drive tires on the track, although Casey Jr. does have more elevation change. However Casey Jr. unlike MACK or Zamperla powered coasters doesn't gain momentum/isn't affected similiarly by gravity like those are, where they gain a lot of speed during downward helices etc. That's why I personally wouldn't count Casey Jr. if I went to Disneyland Paris. It's a tracked ride.
 
- New Vekoma at Galaxyland 1 or 2? - 1
- Gold Rush at DMP (2 cycles on the same track) 1 or 2? - 1 - it is possible to ride the full track in one go, so it's just one.
- Moebius coasters 1 or 2? - 2 as I'd have to queue twice to experience all of it.
- Twin coasters 1 or 2? - 2, again, if I have to queue twice, it's 2 coasters.
- Count clones as new creds? - Yes
- Relocations count as new creds? - No
- Re-tracks (eg Hulk, Nemesis etc) - Yes, I think if functionally the ride is mostly new, it is a new ride. The grey area is the gradual retracking of wooden coasters, which I'd largely not count unless it were a borderline full teardown of the ride.
- Major change eg. Top Thrill Dragster/2 - Yes, it is essentially a new experience
- Disk-Os - No
- Alpine coasters (gravity) - Yes
- Powered alpine coasters eg. Tower Coaster - Yes
- Bobsled/toboggan/SoRo alpine coasters - No
- Ridge Riders - No
- Ghost trains with drops eg Devil's Den - No
 
- New Vekoma at Galaxyland 1 or 2? - 2
- Gold Rush at DMP (2 cycles on the same track) 1 or 2? - 1
- Moebius coasters 1 or 2? - 1
- Twin coasters 1 or 2? - 2
- Count clones as new creds? - Yes
- Relocations count as new creds? - No
- Re-tracks (eg Hulk, Nemesis etc) - YES
- Major change eg. Top Thrill Dragster/2 - Yes
- Disk-Os - No
- Alpine coasters (gravity) - Yes
- Powered alpine coasters eg. Tower Coaster - Yes
- Bobsled/toboggan/SoRo alpine coasters - YES
- Ridge Riders - No
- Ghost trains with drops eg Devil's Den - YES
 
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