Walibi Belgium | Kondaa | Intamin Mega Coaster | 2021
- Thread starter KristofWB
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bernatc22
Mega Poster
Completely off-topic but I find it incredibly satisfying when the G's truly stay at 0 in the Zero-g stall and the Zero-g roll
Jcoasters
Mega Poster
"Mostly at -1 G"
BS
According to your "professional equipment:"
Entrance into stall one was -1.25
Airtime hill was -1.25
First bunny hill was -1.35
Twisted airtime hill was -1.43
(watch in in x0.25 speed if you have to)
On your "warm day"
That means on a more extreme day, that seat is easily pulling -1.5, -1.6
The only moments around -1.0 I saw were the wave turn, second inversion, and the second bunny hop was -0.9, disappointingly.
Where was this mounted, on your chest?
The most intense airtime I've ever experienced was on a rainy day, on the final bunny hop on Joker SFDK. It was so intense, I can't explain. I've never felt airtime like that ever on that ride since.
If Schilke claims Steel Vengeance gets up to -2.0 (probably on extreme days), than I'm guesing Zadra gets below -1.43 in certain seats one xtreme days too.
Knowing how Intamin Pushes the numbers, I wouldn't be surprised if this new mega coaster gets closer to around -1.5/-1.6. When I design a similar element in FVD, the most extreme seats reach about -1.5/-1.6, with the worst seat getting -1.2 briefly, maybe -1.1 depending. This ensures every seat gets ejector, even on slow days.
BS
According to your "professional equipment:"
Entrance into stall one was -1.25
Airtime hill was -1.25
First bunny hill was -1.35
Twisted airtime hill was -1.43
(watch in in x0.25 speed if you have to)
On your "warm day"
That means on a more extreme day, that seat is easily pulling -1.5, -1.6
The only moments around -1.0 I saw were the wave turn, second inversion, and the second bunny hop was -0.9, disappointingly.
Where was this mounted, on your chest?
The most intense airtime I've ever experienced was on a rainy day, on the final bunny hop on Joker SFDK. It was so intense, I can't explain. I've never felt airtime like that ever on that ride since.
If Schilke claims Steel Vengeance gets up to -2.0 (probably on extreme days), than I'm guesing Zadra gets below -1.43 in certain seats one xtreme days too.
Knowing how Intamin Pushes the numbers, I wouldn't be surprised if this new mega coaster gets closer to around -1.5/-1.6. When I design a similar element in FVD, the most extreme seats reach about -1.5/-1.6, with the worst seat getting -1.2 briefly, maybe -1.1 depending. This ensures every seat gets ejector, even on slow days.
This one was indeed mounted on the chest, as we were not able to mount the equipment.
And yes, I mixed it up, Hyperion is more at the -1g area. Sorry, I do make mistakes sometimes. Luckily numbers tend to not lie.
The onride video will follow.
But originally, I did not intend to promote the channel. What I basicly wanted to say is: This one should be more intense as Hyperion, if the numbers Intamin published are correct. We do not know yet if it will reach this heights or if it exceeds them in places. The upper Graph is from the front row @4pm btw.
Jcoasters
Mega Poster
Look, I'm sorry, but I really have a hard time believing that. Only the first hill on Hyperion reaches blow -1.0 G?
I'd really like these "professionals" to stop measuring their ideas on false equipment.
If Intamin says that the final airtime hill on Hyperion is ejector, you can bet your @22 it is.
Please stop pedaling your homemade videos as real.
I'd really like these "professionals" to stop measuring their ideas on false equipment.
If Intamin says that the final airtime hill on Hyperion is ejector, you can bet your @22 it is.
Please stop pedaling your homemade videos as real.
Hold on.
Intamin hold all of the design data and can tell us exactly how the shaping on a given element is designed to induce specific forces, but even the engineers at Intamin will admit that will vary from day-to-day (or heck, even train-to-train). We all know we've ridden coasters that have fast days, slow days, fast hours, etc. You'll get different measurements on those days than the 'notional' design that Intamin use.
Of course, I don't deny there is always benefit in interrogating the numbers (accuracy and calibration of the sensor, method for data filtering/smoothing, data presentation, etc), but let's not start putting our blinkers on to the real variations we know exist in coasters also.
Just let me get this straight: I mix up Hyperion with Zadra, and I talk BS because the numbers state different.
But when I show you Hyperion, the numbers are wrong because you feel like it has to be more.
so basically, you are saying that your butt is more precise than a professional Accelerometer. Bold statement.
Sure, there is a margin of error. The sensor has a 0.5% margin, so 4g might be 4,02g in reality. It also measures only increments of 0,5mg.
The chest mount will add more to this, but due to the long exposure on Hyperion, the margin is quite low as well.
In addition, those numbers are always smoothed in the very same way as the official testing measurements are. We are as accurate as you can get without having access to the original measurements. The smoothing will remove spikes, though or do you think a wooden coaster pulls 12g?
Finally,I made way more measurements before I was confident enough with the results.There are ways to make you think the airtime is more intense than it actually is.Troy at Toverland for example did not hit anything below -0.1g when I tested in May. Yet, it feels like ejector pops.
We can continue this discussion via PM if you still think I am sitting there with my phone in the pocket, but this stuff does not belong in this thread.
But when I show you Hyperion, the numbers are wrong because you feel like it has to be more.
so basically, you are saying that your butt is more precise than a professional Accelerometer. Bold statement.
Sure, there is a margin of error. The sensor has a 0.5% margin, so 4g might be 4,02g in reality. It also measures only increments of 0,5mg.
The chest mount will add more to this, but due to the long exposure on Hyperion, the margin is quite low as well.
In addition, those numbers are always smoothed in the very same way as the official testing measurements are. We are as accurate as you can get without having access to the original measurements. The smoothing will remove spikes, though or do you think a wooden coaster pulls 12g?
Finally,I made way more measurements before I was confident enough with the results.There are ways to make you think the airtime is more intense than it actually is.Troy at Toverland for example did not hit anything below -0.1g when I tested in May. Yet, it feels like ejector pops.
We can continue this discussion via PM if you still think I am sitting there with my phone in the pocket, but this stuff does not belong in this thread.
Pear
Strata Poster
The final negative g peak on the graph goes to -0.9 and it transitions from positive to negative very quickly. You do realize that ejector doesn't depend on going below -1g right? Ejector varies in strength but as long as you are being "ejected" from your seat then the airtime is ejector and not floater. Ejector airtime is sharp and can be weak or strong. Looking at the graph there is a sharp transition from positive to negative which indicates ejector. You seem to underestimate how much -1 g really is.
Also manufacturers definitely always tell the truth 100% of the time obviously
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@Jcoasters do you have any reliable statistics to prove @Trax wrong?
I'm pretty certain, that these statistics are some of the most accurate statistics you can get. But randomly throwing g's into the room won't give you any arguments, but only feel-facts. At this point any proper discussion won't work, unless you get some proper statistics.
I'm pretty certain, that these statistics are some of the most accurate statistics you can get. But randomly throwing g's into the room won't give you any arguments, but only feel-facts. At this point any proper discussion won't work, unless you get some proper statistics.
Peet
Giga Poster
At -1G you'd be getting ejected from that seat pretty rapidly if it wasn't for the restraint.
That graph includes the 1G for gravity, so the coaster is creating -2G, which is offset by 1G for gravity. Sounds believable to me.
Also, why are people being so rude to each other on this and other topics? Be kind, people!
That graph includes the 1G for gravity, so the coaster is creating -2G, which is offset by 1G for gravity. Sounds believable to me.
Also, why are people being so rude to each other on this and other topics? Be kind, people!
Jcoasters
Mega Poster
We're discussing the final airtime hill, not the jump into brake.
His graph says the maximum vertical G force is around 4.15, when the official stats say 4.8!
Hyperion (roller coaster) - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
Hyperion - Energylandia (Zator, Małopolskie, Poland)
Looking for statistics on the fastest, tallest or longest roller coasters? Find it all and much more with the interactive Roller Coaster Database.
rcdb.com
I'm well aware of this
Uh, yeah, the ones that Intamin gives us!
The original reason I was arguing with Trax is because he was saying that Zadra is mostly around -1 G. Now I haven't ridden it, but considering RMC themselves says STEVE gets up to -2.0, and Zadra is another flagship coaster, why wouldn't it get at least to -1.5? His own video even says -1.43
Yes, my brain is! I've been on ejector airtime hills from various manufactures, and I know what it feels like! I haven't been on Hyperion, but when I watch a POV and compare it to a POV of a similar element I've been on, I can tell the last airtime hill looks like it would be ejector on most days! And that's what Intamin themselves state!
Also, I've you've ever fooled around in FVD, it really helps you to gauge what's going on.
I'm going to stick with the facts, not a home-made video, and I'm well aware of physics trickery such as the B&M straight sections and the variance of speed/forces throughout various runs.
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Pear
Strata Poster
Even that comes close to -0.9 my point still stands.
It literally is ejector on the graph or are you still not able to interpret it correctly even with your insanely accurate brain and vast FVD skills?
Come back when you don't have to use Wikipedia as your source. Any basic schooling should have taught you to not use that as the end all be all. RCDB also is not always incredibly accurate. Even then, the difference between a 4.15g and 4.8g is so negligible I don't even know why you're focusing on it. Forces do vary a lot depending on the days, spiked forces especially. The average force of a ride, however should stay relatively constant.
Reading comprehension is a great skill to have on a forum.
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Jcoasters
Mega Poster
It's around -0.8 at his graph. That's not ejector, ok? Have you ever been on a kiddie slope at 10 degrees and you're experiencing something around 0.9 g? It feels different than moving along a flat surface at the same speed, doesn't it? Same with -0.8 g and -1.0 g.
I'm guessing he's in either the front or back seats, and if they we're pulling -0.8 spike, hovering around -0.7 than the middle car would be pulling -0.5 or something.
That's not ejector....
It's literally not ejector, its -0.8 and I never claimed to be the best at FVD. Even DC Rivals pulls -1.7 (during the non inverting loop) according to the official rendering.
Now let's look at the official rending for this ride.
Intamin claims the final airtime hill is an ejector hill, so if let's say the front seat pulls -1.1 on a nice day like he rode, the middle seat would still be pulling -1.0, maybe -0.9 with that type of train.
I totally disagree
I've agreed with this many times. Please take the extra minute to thoroughly read my posts before commenting.
I'm a conspiracy theorist in real life but I still trust Intamin with this one. 4.8 versus 4.15?
1. They say 4.8g, not the direction. That is important, as it can be the combined force. There is no statement around showing 4.8g vertical. We like to assume that they mean vertical forces, but we can’t tell unless specified.
2.The restraints and the transitions play a huge part how intense airtime feels. The new gen Vekoma vests feel less intense with the same airtime as the new Intamin ones. The transitions are also extremely important. The faster the transition, the more intense the airtime will feel. Example? Many people praise GCI for the small ejector pops, yet GCI themselves(!) say, that their trains are build for 0g at Max. Still, you feel those pops on GCIs. How are they doing it? Very quick transitions into low g areas.
I always thought the famous Airtime table is BS, but it makes a point if you imagine the transitions also scaling - short pops of low g moments will feel like ejector, even though they aren’t.
3. No coaster in the US and afaik in Europe neither is allowed to pull more than -2g airtime. Luckily, the rules are very similar, so I can speak for both. SVs -2g are highly likely to be with a full train, hot day, rainy track and no trimming.
Trimms are actually helpful to keep a ride more intense, as you have better control about the intensity of an element. Airtime above -1g is highly regulated, and it gets even harder above -1.5g airtime. I use FVD myself and I have Access to the norm (DIN13814 for Germany). I know what is allowed to do, and also what
and how it’s measured.
4. Many people tried to inform you about the differences weight, weather, maintenance, time and other factors can make. The first elements won’t feel that different, but the longer the ride goes, the bigger the spread. I always try to measure long rides when they are warmed up to give a fair impression.
5.If
- purchasing a professional accelerometer
- designing and building custom parts for a secure mounting of all the equipment
- programming a special readout tool
- contacting the Marketing department
- flying to Energylandia
- getting my whole equipment personally checked
- getting an official filming permission
Is homemade for you, let me know. I haven’t been sitting in my basement playing around with FVD before I made my statements. We have invested countless hours until we even got the first usable measurement.
2.The restraints and the transitions play a huge part how intense airtime feels. The new gen Vekoma vests feel less intense with the same airtime as the new Intamin ones. The transitions are also extremely important. The faster the transition, the more intense the airtime will feel. Example? Many people praise GCI for the small ejector pops, yet GCI themselves(!) say, that their trains are build for 0g at Max. Still, you feel those pops on GCIs. How are they doing it? Very quick transitions into low g areas.
I always thought the famous Airtime table is BS, but it makes a point if you imagine the transitions also scaling - short pops of low g moments will feel like ejector, even though they aren’t.
3. No coaster in the US and afaik in Europe neither is allowed to pull more than -2g airtime. Luckily, the rules are very similar, so I can speak for both. SVs -2g are highly likely to be with a full train, hot day, rainy track and no trimming.
Trimms are actually helpful to keep a ride more intense, as you have better control about the intensity of an element. Airtime above -1g is highly regulated, and it gets even harder above -1.5g airtime. I use FVD myself and I have Access to the norm (DIN13814 for Germany). I know what is allowed to do, and also what
and how it’s measured.
4. Many people tried to inform you about the differences weight, weather, maintenance, time and other factors can make. The first elements won’t feel that different, but the longer the ride goes, the bigger the spread. I always try to measure long rides when they are warmed up to give a fair impression.
5.If
- purchasing a professional accelerometer
- designing and building custom parts for a secure mounting of all the equipment
- programming a special readout tool
- contacting the Marketing department
- flying to Energylandia
- getting my whole equipment personally checked
- getting an official filming permission
Is homemade for you, let me know. I haven’t been sitting in my basement playing around with FVD before I made my statements. We have invested countless hours until we even got the first usable measurement.
Okay, since you still do not seem to understand any basics of the topic, here are some explanations for you.
We do measure with a frequency of 400 Hz, that means 400 Measurements of acceleration per second.
The accelerometer in our measuring device has a resolution of 0.0039 g, and has a linearity of +/- 0.5% v.E., that means if the actual acceleration is 10 g, we can measure between 10.0503 g and 9.9489 g - which is (I assume) extremely accurate. Combined with low noise this is pretty accurate - of course there are more factors than these numbers, so we claim an accuracy of 0.1 g. But we do not take raw data from the sensor, that would be ridiculous, like I'll show you right now - you might find a discrepancy between official numbers and our measurements.
We do measure according to DIN EN 13814 as far as we can and process our data like we should - depending on the older version and newer version of that norm you either have to add a low-pass-filter with 5 Hz maximum frequency or 10 Hz maximum frequency. We use the newer norm that needs a 5 Hz low-pass-filter.
Here are examples of this exact Hyperion measurement with different filters: No filter, 10 Hz, 5 Hz, 1 Hz
Depending on your filtering method you can claim: "Hyperion has a maximum vertical acceleration of almost 7 g (!!!!)" or you can claim "Hyperion has a maximum vertical acceleration of almost 4 g". According to the older version of the DIN EN 13814 Hyperion would accelerate you with a maximum of around 5.25 g and a minimum of -1.4 g (vertical).
Furhtermore I still don't get your point, where you're claiming -0.8 g (!!) are nothing but floater airtime. Floater Airtime is around the 0 g (vertical) area. -0.8 to -1 g are like you were upside down. If that wouldn't eject you from your seat, you should eat less, to not get stuck in your seat.
I'd love to hear more about our project being bull**** from a guy, who doesn't know how many people are involved and who these people are, without even knowing what equipment or even knowing what software and knowledge was used.
We do measure with a frequency of 400 Hz, that means 400 Measurements of acceleration per second.
The accelerometer in our measuring device has a resolution of 0.0039 g, and has a linearity of +/- 0.5% v.E., that means if the actual acceleration is 10 g, we can measure between 10.0503 g and 9.9489 g - which is (I assume) extremely accurate. Combined with low noise this is pretty accurate - of course there are more factors than these numbers, so we claim an accuracy of 0.1 g. But we do not take raw data from the sensor, that would be ridiculous, like I'll show you right now - you might find a discrepancy between official numbers and our measurements.
We do measure according to DIN EN 13814 as far as we can and process our data like we should - depending on the older version and newer version of that norm you either have to add a low-pass-filter with 5 Hz maximum frequency or 10 Hz maximum frequency. We use the newer norm that needs a 5 Hz low-pass-filter.
Here are examples of this exact Hyperion measurement with different filters: No filter, 10 Hz, 5 Hz, 1 Hz
Depending on your filtering method you can claim: "Hyperion has a maximum vertical acceleration of almost 7 g (!!!!)" or you can claim "Hyperion has a maximum vertical acceleration of almost 4 g". According to the older version of the DIN EN 13814 Hyperion would accelerate you with a maximum of around 5.25 g and a minimum of -1.4 g (vertical).
Furhtermore I still don't get your point, where you're claiming -0.8 g (!!) are nothing but floater airtime. Floater Airtime is around the 0 g (vertical) area. -0.8 to -1 g are like you were upside down. If that wouldn't eject you from your seat, you should eat less, to not get stuck in your seat.
I'd love to hear more about our project being bull**** from a guy, who doesn't know how many people are involved and who these people are, without even knowing what equipment or even knowing what software and knowledge was used.
Varnonth
Roller Poster
In other news, Walibi reports they completed the last piece of track today! They posted some constructionpictures, including e New perspective on the wave-turn: