Alton Towers | The Smiler | Gerstlauer Infinity
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rollermonkey
Strata Poster
Re: New "world's first" coaster at Alton Towers 2013
They could easily fit a beyond vertical drop in the indoor bit. Mystery Mine's other drop is tiny, but still gets to 90 degrees.
As for Gertslauer or whatever, I'm starting to wonder... It could indeed be a hoax entirely. Why would they put a coaster with a vertical drop RIGHT NEXT TO Oblivion?
That would make a very expensive coaster more obsolete than it already is.
Just thinkin... I have no inside info on this one.
They could easily fit a beyond vertical drop in the indoor bit. Mystery Mine's other drop is tiny, but still gets to 90 degrees.
As for Gertslauer or whatever, I'm starting to wonder... It could indeed be a hoax entirely. Why would they put a coaster with a vertical drop RIGHT NEXT TO Oblivion?
That would make a very expensive coaster more obsolete than it already is.
Just thinkin... I have no inside info on this one.
SaiyanHajime
CF Legend
Re: New "world's first" coaster at Alton Towers 2013
Though, I've just been over at Towers Times, and they seem to be theorising that what was SW7 has been put on hold and that this is a different project to what we've been hearing rumours of (the Air carpark/valley/Flume coaster). Like, as if this is actually SW8, and SW7 has been put on hold.
I actually think that's pretty plausible, but also no different to how things go every time any park plans a new ride, especially in the case of Alton where it is so difficult to find the perfect thing. They will come up with tonnes of ideas, and many of them will be revisited several times. Thats why we always hear repeating rumours. Rumours are just that, but there is rarely smoke without fire. The problem is we hear them so delayed after they dwindle down through park management to on sight staff, many of which are enthusiasts, by which time the project direction has taken new direction.
But, I think interpreting that image as a vertical launch is a strange thing to do anyway. At the time, people mostly read it as being a backwards drop, and the only reason then to suspect vertical launch was the fact they are using a picture of Wicked. In reality, Wicked was probably only used because it was easy to cut out or the expressions of riders were preferable, or the angle of the car was perfect, or it just happened to be the first thing whoever put the image together came across. The fact that the riders are facing this way, even, could be irrelevant to whatever they were trying to convey.
Someone on Towers Times posted the throughputs for Fahrenheit, Maverick and Saw. Strangely, Saw wins... However, Saw is far shorter with more block sections than SW7 seems to. Someone else responded to me pointing out that Takawhatever in Japan is about the same length as SW7... And looking at it, it lacks block brakes. So, I wonder what it's throughput is like? Does anyone know? Because if it's still good, then my Intamin theory is bust.
Someone else also pointed out that the £20 mill is a project budget. Still, how much does research and development really cost?
Yup.Ben said:
Though, I've just been over at Towers Times, and they seem to be theorising that what was SW7 has been put on hold and that this is a different project to what we've been hearing rumours of (the Air carpark/valley/Flume coaster). Like, as if this is actually SW8, and SW7 has been put on hold.
I actually think that's pretty plausible, but also no different to how things go every time any park plans a new ride, especially in the case of Alton where it is so difficult to find the perfect thing. They will come up with tonnes of ideas, and many of them will be revisited several times. Thats why we always hear repeating rumours. Rumours are just that, but there is rarely smoke without fire. The problem is we hear them so delayed after they dwindle down through park management to on sight staff, many of which are enthusiasts, by which time the project direction has taken new direction.
But, I think interpreting that image as a vertical launch is a strange thing to do anyway. At the time, people mostly read it as being a backwards drop, and the only reason then to suspect vertical launch was the fact they are using a picture of Wicked. In reality, Wicked was probably only used because it was easy to cut out or the expressions of riders were preferable, or the angle of the car was perfect, or it just happened to be the first thing whoever put the image together came across. The fact that the riders are facing this way, even, could be irrelevant to whatever they were trying to convey.
Someone on Towers Times posted the throughputs for Fahrenheit, Maverick and Saw. Strangely, Saw wins... However, Saw is far shorter with more block sections than SW7 seems to. Someone else responded to me pointing out that Takawhatever in Japan is about the same length as SW7... And looking at it, it lacks block brakes. So, I wonder what it's throughput is like? Does anyone know? Because if it's still good, then my Intamin theory is bust.
Someone else also pointed out that the £20 mill is a project budget. Still, how much does research and development really cost?
Re: New "world's first" coaster at Alton Towers 2013
I'm clueless about the manufacturer, I keep going round and round in circles in my head about which one it could be. It almost seems like you can justify each one by just looking at this new ride from a different perspective. The biggest thing is for me, I'm happy to wait and see. I'll admit, I'm excited about this regardless of the manufacturer (that doesn't mean I don't have preferences), so I'm more than willing to wait and see what actually gets released about this. Until then... I'll continue to read...
A lot. The question is more, how much research and development was needed for this ride? My guess is not a huge amount. There's nothing new in the way of technology (that we know of yet anyway) and I don't think designing a Eurofigher that doesn't go beyond 90° would really add much to the research and development side of things.Joey said:
I'm clueless about the manufacturer, I keep going round and round in circles in my head about which one it could be. It almost seems like you can justify each one by just looking at this new ride from a different perspective. The biggest thing is for me, I'm happy to wait and see. I'll admit, I'm excited about this regardless of the manufacturer (that doesn't mean I don't have preferences), so I'm more than willing to wait and see what actually gets released about this. Until then... I'll continue to read...
SaiyanHajime
CF Legend
Re: New "world's first" coaster at Alton Towers 2013
I don't think so.
What do you mean, and why does the comment about how long it'll be until the next coaster have any relevance?Tom G said:
But even if this ride were to cost the same as Swarm... Which it wouldn't, since it's not a B&M nor is it on reclaimed land, that's £5 million worth of research and development?
I don't think so.
Re: New "world's first" coaster at Alton Towers 2013
^Or £5mil of landscaping and construction costs. I don't know how much the building cost encompasses. If it also includes removing the Black Hole tent and preparing the land etc, then it might be an extra £5mil worth. Where has the figure of £20mil come from? I suspect it might be the all in cost of this new ride, instead of just the cost to install the coaster like I (assume) other costs are. I don't know, I'm hypothesising as much as anyone here.
^Or £5mil of landscaping and construction costs. I don't know how much the building cost encompasses. If it also includes removing the Black Hole tent and preparing the land etc, then it might be an extra £5mil worth. Where has the figure of £20mil come from? I suspect it might be the all in cost of this new ride, instead of just the cost to install the coaster like I (assume) other costs are. I don't know, I'm hypothesising as much as anyone here.
SaiyanHajime
CF Legend
Re: New "world's first" coaster at Alton Towers 2013
Oh I guess marketing probably is part of that £20 mill? Thats probably a hefty chunk.
But landscaping and consturction and theming and reclaiming land and everything is included in Swarm's £15 mill, right? I just don't see how this could cost more, despite being such a long ride, unless the actual coaster was costly too.Hixee said:
Oh I guess marketing probably is part of that £20 mill? Thats probably a hefty chunk.
Re: New "world's first" coaster at Alton Towers 2013
^Yeah, that's what I mean. I've never thought the ride costings was a particularly clear area, as it seems to be really open to interpretation with regards to what you count and what you don't count. I guess this might have something epic in the building that costs a fortune...
This still misses my point slightly though, all I was saying is that R&D for a new ride type is a lot. We don't know if this a new ride type or not yet (a non-beyond-vertical Eurofighter doesn't count as far as I'm concerned), so there's nothing to say costs have been sunk into R&D for this. R&D is an expensive thing to do, so either one of three things has happened in my view. Either this ride has something new, warranting more R&D costs, OR this ride is being built by someone like Intamin who don't come cheap and it's just an expensive ride, OR there's something else going on in the building(s) we don't know about yet.
^Yeah, that's what I mean. I've never thought the ride costings was a particularly clear area, as it seems to be really open to interpretation with regards to what you count and what you don't count. I guess this might have something epic in the building that costs a fortune...
This still misses my point slightly though, all I was saying is that R&D for a new ride type is a lot. We don't know if this a new ride type or not yet (a non-beyond-vertical Eurofighter doesn't count as far as I'm concerned), so there's nothing to say costs have been sunk into R&D for this. R&D is an expensive thing to do, so either one of three things has happened in my view. Either this ride has something new, warranting more R&D costs, OR this ride is being built by someone like Intamin who don't come cheap and it's just an expensive ride, OR there's something else going on in the building(s) we don't know about yet.
STC
Mega Poster
Re: New "world's first" coaster at Alton Towers 2013
Over on TTF, we pretty much reached a consensus that Alton just pluck a random number out of the ether. It could include, or not include, as much as they want it to. But for marketing reasons, I'm sure that every coaster they build will cost more than the last. You could easily bump it up by including staffing costs for its first year, or something weird like that.
I don't think the £20 million means anything at all.
Over on TTF, we pretty much reached a consensus that Alton just pluck a random number out of the ether. It could include, or not include, as much as they want it to. But for marketing reasons, I'm sure that every coaster they build will cost more than the last. You could easily bump it up by including staffing costs for its first year, or something weird like that.
I don't think the £20 million means anything at all.
Re: New "world's first" coaster at Alton Towers 2013
The booster bike was never submitted to the council. In fact, it's generally recognised as probably being an enthusiast hoax anyway.
If you look on the council website, all the Alton applications are there (including the woody), but the booster bikes aren't (or I couldn't see them anyway).
It's £5K to submit plans and you're kicking a hornet's nest potentially with the locals. It's not happening just "to fool us" - it's genuine. If it was "leaked documents", then yeah call foul. As they've invested properly in this and made an official application, this is what's happening.
The station is roughly the size of Saw's station isn't it? So there's still a chance that there might be a hidden element inside. It may even be the beyond vertical drop we're missing from this "Eurofighter". It may seem odd to have it next to Oblivion, but that's like saying "why have air next to Nemesis?", people will just get the two confused between them. Well, they do to be honest, but people can tell the difference between the two rides. A Eurofighter beyond vertical drop is a very different experience to Oblivion - plus if it's hidden away, who cares? The public wont. That's pure speculation and I don't really believe it, but just mixing things up a little.
I still think that while there's some doubt on it being Gerstlauer due to a mistake on the noise thing, I don't think it casts it completely out. The covering letter says "type similar to Saw" too. So while it's not a definite, it still points towards something that the untrained eye would look at and think "yeah, it's pretty much the same as Saw". Intamin just don't fit that bill (nothing currently Intamin anyway). Gerstaluer fit the bill best (obviously, nothing is as equal or similar to a Gerstlauer as a Gerstlauer)
Martyn B said:
The booster bike was never submitted to the council. In fact, it's generally recognised as probably being an enthusiast hoax anyway.
If you look on the council website, all the Alton applications are there (including the woody), but the booster bikes aren't (or I couldn't see them anyway).
It's £5K to submit plans and you're kicking a hornet's nest potentially with the locals. It's not happening just "to fool us" - it's genuine. If it was "leaked documents", then yeah call foul. As they've invested properly in this and made an official application, this is what's happening.
The station is roughly the size of Saw's station isn't it? So there's still a chance that there might be a hidden element inside. It may even be the beyond vertical drop we're missing from this "Eurofighter". It may seem odd to have it next to Oblivion, but that's like saying "why have air next to Nemesis?", people will just get the two confused between them. Well, they do to be honest, but people can tell the difference between the two rides. A Eurofighter beyond vertical drop is a very different experience to Oblivion - plus if it's hidden away, who cares? The public wont. That's pure speculation and I don't really believe it, but just mixing things up a little.
I still think that while there's some doubt on it being Gerstlauer due to a mistake on the noise thing, I don't think it casts it completely out. The covering letter says "type similar to Saw" too. So while it's not a definite, it still points towards something that the untrained eye would look at and think "yeah, it's pretty much the same as Saw". Intamin just don't fit that bill (nothing currently Intamin anyway). Gerstaluer fit the bill best (obviously, nothing is as equal or similar to a Gerstlauer as a Gerstlauer)
Mysterious Sue
Strata Poster
Re: New "world's first" coaster at Alton Towers 2013
I don't think they are idiots, I think they are human and as such, open to human error!
Throughout my career I have been amazed by the mistakes, errors and general ineptitude which companies (not just large ones) seem to be able to achieve. If you have more than one department involved without a decent amount of communication, things can easily go wrong. Failures in editing, checking, or misinformation. Of course those planning the ride know every last detail, but does the person making the plans?
Suppose the 'Environmental Officer' or whatever the guy's called who makes the noise report is told to compare the new ride to a similar one already existing, chosen due to its similarities, it's easy to see how they could mistakenly believe they are comparing like for like.
As someone who writes and edits technical books for a living (and spend my days absorbing applications for new mining licences) I'm suggesting that the sentence structure in that report is a little odd, combined with the potential error over the vertical drop, and it's POSSIBLE that the reference to the same manufacturer is wrong!
nealbie said:
nealbie said:I know we like to pretend these massive companies are stupid, it's fun. But unfortunately they're not.
I don't think they are idiots, I think they are human and as such, open to human error!
Throughout my career I have been amazed by the mistakes, errors and general ineptitude which companies (not just large ones) seem to be able to achieve. If you have more than one department involved without a decent amount of communication, things can easily go wrong. Failures in editing, checking, or misinformation. Of course those planning the ride know every last detail, but does the person making the plans?
Suppose the 'Environmental Officer' or whatever the guy's called who makes the noise report is told to compare the new ride to a similar one already existing, chosen due to its similarities, it's easy to see how they could mistakenly believe they are comparing like for like.
As someone who writes and edits technical books for a living (and spend my days absorbing applications for new mining licences) I'm suggesting that the sentence structure in that report is a little odd, combined with the potential error over the vertical drop, and it's POSSIBLE that the reference to the same manufacturer is wrong!
SaiyanHajime
CF Legend
Re: New "world's first" coaster at Alton Towers 2013
It's worth pointing out that something that looks stupid to us might not be stupid at all. There may be a bloody good reason for erroneously writing on the report that SW7 has a beyond vertical drop. It doesn't have one, we can see that, and even if it did inside that building it wouldn't be relevant to the sound report. The integrity of that report is thus problematic and to pass it off without little consideration is baffling me.
I cannot, for the life of me, think of any organisation that I've ever dealt with that was competent with communicating between departments. School, college, uni, NHS, HMRC, Job Centre, work places. Stuff gets lost in translation, or lost all together, constantly. Large companies are actually pretty prone to stupidity, because they have a heck of a lot of people working together.
It's worth pointing out that something that looks stupid to us might not be stupid at all. There may be a bloody good reason for erroneously writing on the report that SW7 has a beyond vertical drop. It doesn't have one, we can see that, and even if it did inside that building it wouldn't be relevant to the sound report. The integrity of that report is thus problematic and to pass it off without little consideration is baffling me.
Re: New "world's first" coaster at Alton Towers 2013
It's seemingly erroneous, but not absolutely. While a beyond vertical drop may not have a bearing on the noise, the ride may still have one and the comparison between this and Saw as identical rides both with beyond vertical drops may still be accurate.
Where is the error? Is it that it's a Eurofighter without a vertical drop? Is it that it's a Eurofighter with a vertical drop that doesn't have any bearing on the noise as it's inside? Is it the wording which actually means that the ride type is identical to Saw, which has a beyond vertical drop - extraneous information perhaps, or maybe making the point Saw has an extra bit (like Oblivion which caused problems) that this one doesn't.
Occam's Razor please Joey. You work on the simplest, most likely solution first and once it's been disregarded move on to the next one. Three interpretations of that could still easily imply it's a Eurofighter and that the statement "the same ride type as Saw" (or whatever it was) is true. Therefore, the most logical answer is that it's a Gerstlauer Eurofighter. It's not 100% definite, but it's the most likely answer as that's what it says.
Once we get more information then we can start to whittle it down, but at the moment it is the most likely thing based on the evidence we have.
It's seemingly erroneous, but not absolutely. While a beyond vertical drop may not have a bearing on the noise, the ride may still have one and the comparison between this and Saw as identical rides both with beyond vertical drops may still be accurate.
Where is the error? Is it that it's a Eurofighter without a vertical drop? Is it that it's a Eurofighter with a vertical drop that doesn't have any bearing on the noise as it's inside? Is it the wording which actually means that the ride type is identical to Saw, which has a beyond vertical drop - extraneous information perhaps, or maybe making the point Saw has an extra bit (like Oblivion which caused problems) that this one doesn't.
Occam's Razor please Joey. You work on the simplest, most likely solution first and once it's been disregarded move on to the next one. Three interpretations of that could still easily imply it's a Eurofighter and that the statement "the same ride type as Saw" (or whatever it was) is true. Therefore, the most logical answer is that it's a Gerstlauer Eurofighter. It's not 100% definite, but it's the most likely answer as that's what it says.
Once we get more information then we can start to whittle it down, but at the moment it is the most likely thing based on the evidence we have.
SaiyanHajime
CF Legend
Re: New "world's first" coaster at Alton Towers 2013
I understand your point, but I don't think "This is a new type of Eurofighter. Gerst have changed their track style. Alton either don't care about capacity despite recent evidence that they care a great deal OR Gerst have developed a long type of train. Gerst have upped their prices. And Alton do not care about the unprofessional hand over from Gerst to Thorpe with Saw. And the noise report? That's referencing Saw's vertical drop for no valid reason, despite the rest of the report being concise." is the simplest explanation.
Even if it is a Gerstlauer, which don't get me wrong is highly likely, the noise report is still whichever way you look at it not written very well. It's clearly not important that it is written with the upmost care, or is incredibly accurate, or perhaps it's wording is purposely cryptic. Using it as undoubtable evidence is, in my opinion, just a bit silly when theres a lot to suggest it's someone other than Gerstlaurer. I have no problem with people guessing it's Gerst, I have problem with people reporting it to be absolutely 100% definitely a Gerstlaurer Eurofighter, as was posted on the front page CF news and as Towers Times state as their topic title.
I understand your point, but I don't think "This is a new type of Eurofighter. Gerst have changed their track style. Alton either don't care about capacity despite recent evidence that they care a great deal OR Gerst have developed a long type of train. Gerst have upped their prices. And Alton do not care about the unprofessional hand over from Gerst to Thorpe with Saw. And the noise report? That's referencing Saw's vertical drop for no valid reason, despite the rest of the report being concise." is the simplest explanation.
Even if it is a Gerstlauer, which don't get me wrong is highly likely, the noise report is still whichever way you look at it not written very well. It's clearly not important that it is written with the upmost care, or is incredibly accurate, or perhaps it's wording is purposely cryptic. Using it as undoubtable evidence is, in my opinion, just a bit silly when theres a lot to suggest it's someone other than Gerstlaurer. I have no problem with people guessing it's Gerst, I have problem with people reporting it to be absolutely 100% definitely a Gerstlaurer Eurofighter, as was posted on the front page CF news and as Towers Times state as their topic title.
Re: New "world's first" coaster at Alton Towers 2013
But...
We don't know what the capacity will be or how many block sections there will be.
We don't know for definite that Merlin sued Gerstlauer.
We don't know that Gerstlauer haven't got a new track design (like when Intamin appeared suddenly with new track design).
We don't know what the £20 million cost references at all (we know that's costly even to create land and put in a B&M as seen with The Swarm).
That's all speculation and has to be treated as such. We DO have an official document saying "it's Gerstlauer" only with an extraneous or badly worded bit of information. When that document is proven to be wrong, then we write it off. At the moment though, it's speculation that the document is wrong. So it's current "fact" against "speculation" and logically you have take the fact (as we know it at the moment) as being correct. It may not be, but at the moment it is the only thing we "know". So reporting it as such is correct. It can be changed in the future if it turns out it IS incorrect, but as it stands, the information has to be taken as true and correct.
But...
We don't know what the capacity will be or how many block sections there will be.
We don't know for definite that Merlin sued Gerstlauer.
We don't know that Gerstlauer haven't got a new track design (like when Intamin appeared suddenly with new track design).
We don't know what the £20 million cost references at all (we know that's costly even to create land and put in a B&M as seen with The Swarm).
That's all speculation and has to be treated as such. We DO have an official document saying "it's Gerstlauer" only with an extraneous or badly worded bit of information. When that document is proven to be wrong, then we write it off. At the moment though, it's speculation that the document is wrong. So it's current "fact" against "speculation" and logically you have take the fact (as we know it at the moment) as being correct. It may not be, but at the moment it is the only thing we "know". So reporting it as such is correct. It can be changed in the future if it turns out it IS incorrect, but as it stands, the information has to be taken as true and correct.
Martyn B
CF Legend
Re: New "world's first" coaster at Alton Towers 2013
I dont know how all that sorta stuff works, but I thought it was just a matter of a few hundred to apply for planning permission. I know the Drop tower at Pleasurewood only cost about £350 to submit to the council, but obviously the overal cost was much higher with all the noise assesments tests and artwork etc. But JUST appling for permission did cost peanuts in reality.
If its like the other mini drops they do, then it doesn't actually get to 90', something like 80' I think. I remember asking about that a while back.
I dont know how all that sorta stuff works, but I thought it was just a matter of a few hundred to apply for planning permission. I know the Drop tower at Pleasurewood only cost about £350 to submit to the council, but obviously the overal cost was much higher with all the noise assesments tests and artwork etc. But JUST appling for permission did cost peanuts in reality.
If its like the other mini drops they do, then it doesn't actually get to 90', something like 80' I think. I remember asking about that a while back.
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