Alton Towers | The Smiler | Gerstlauer Infinity

[furie]

Re: New "world-first" coaster at Alton Towers 2013

Nah, they would have had to write "The ride is being supplied by Gerstlauer, the same company who provided Saw at Thorpe Park." They'd still need to say it was the same company as Saw, but to the planning department the company name is irrelevant, it's just something foreign sounding padding out the sentence

I've been having a look on Bing maps for similar coasters, particularly Intamin that are this kind of size.

Kanonen is a little smaller than the area this coaster covers, but is obviously launched so is potentially "shorter". Both Fahrenheit and Speed Monster are larger than this site area, but elongated. So long but not quite as wide as the area.

The point is that to essentially double the number of inversions for equivalent Intamin rides, there just isn't the room. I just don't think (going from previous examples) that Intamin can get the tightness in there for this layout (if it's an accurate(ish) layout). It just doesn't really fit.

So I'd say that Intamin are as much out of this as B&M for the same reasons, and probably the MS Wing trains.

 

[SaiyanHajime]

Re: New "world-first" coaster at Alton Towers 2013

Not plausible?

I did say it's plausible. In fact, I think it's most likely. The people who the report is intended for wouldn't know who Gerstlauer is, so it makes sense to reference a ride they would probably at least know of. Which answers Marc's pondering...

I still think it's fishy why they'd add "beyond vertical drop" to it for NO reason.

And, if they were told "similar to Saw" that doesn't mean it's the same manufacturer, anyway.

Which is my point, really.

I'd describe a tonne of rides by different manufacturers to be "similar to Saw", both from an enthusiast, industry and general public POV.

Saw is the most similar thing in the UK to what the plans for Alton 2013 show, so saying it's "similar to Saw" does not mean "it's a Gerstlaurer Eurofighter".

...Probably makes it most likely, though. But with so many manufacturers doing similar things, it's far from conclusive. There are so many companies who have built vertical lifts, launches and inversions of those forms.

 

[furie]

Re: New "world-first" coaster at Alton Towers 2013

Yes, but they also said in another document "the same manufacturer", which may mean a similar ride but not identical, but it definitely means "the same manufacturer"

 

[SaiyanHajime]

Re: New "world-first" coaster at Alton Towers 2013

A bit like how "it has a beyond vertical drop", definitely means "it's got a beyond vertical drop"? Even though we know... Not suspect, know it doesn't?

I feel we are going round in circles.

We were discussing the possibility of there being an error. If they were told "it's similar to Saw" they could have elaborated. I don't know why you keep dragging it back to the point that "they said this so it must be/probably is true" when we know other elements of the document are 100% undoubtably false. If anything, all we know is that the document has false information in it.

It's plausible, and likely, that the document was elaborated by someone who doesn't know better writing for people who don't know better. We agreed there... So then it is NOT a stretch of the imagination to assume they took "similar to Saw" as "same as Saw". "Definitely" is not a word that comes into this discussion.

 

[furie]

Re: New "world-first" coaster at Alton Towers 2013

We're going around in circles because you are saying "they made one error, so everything must therefore be erroneous", but I'm saying "one error does NOT make everything else erroneous".
Particularly that one is "a name" the other is "technical roller coaster information the layman doesn't understand".
One can easily be gotten wrong, the other, not so easily

It may even be that, as it's two documents, one was written by an imbecile (the incorrect one) and the other one written by somebody intelligent (the one that says it's the same manufacturer).

There are lots of reasons that information on the actual coaster may be wrong, but very few reasons stating its the same manufacturer may be wrong.

"Definitely" is not a word that comes into this discussion.

It does in the context I used it. They definitely said it was the same manufacturer. It may be wrong, but they definitely said that and that definitely means "the same"

 

[marc]

New "world-first" coaster at Alton Towers 2013

By not actually saying a company name means it could be anyone. For me the wording just leaves it open.

Before I joined cf I thought all coasters were made by the same people, I did not have a clue that was not the case.

I still think this is between 3 firms, we just have to wait ages to find out.

Due to all the **** with Saw and the spoken about suing stuff, even though this has never been confirmed, I just cannot see it. Then again Saw is very popular and the public love it. Then again collosus is also loved by the public.

 

[furie]

Re: New

Before I joined cf I thought all coasters were made by the same people, I did not have a clue that was not the case.

Agreed, which I why this is the reason for-

By not actually saying a company name means it could be anyone. For me the wording just leaves it open.

There's no need to mention the actual manufacturer, just what work they've done before so that people can relate it to something similar in the country. The actual manufacturer name is completely irrelevant, but their work isn't...

 

[SaiyanHajime]

Re: New "world-first" coaster at Alton Towers 2013

We're going around in circles because you are saying "they made one error, so everything must therefore be erroneous", but I'm saying "one error does NOT make everything else erroneous".

I'm not saying that at all, you're being black and white. Don't worry, it's an old people thing. ;P

Particularly that one is "a name" the other is "technical roller coaster information the layman doesn't understand".
One can easily be gotten wrong, the other, not so easily

But it's not "technical roller coaster information the layman doesn't understand". It doesn't specify the manufacturer, it specifies "it's the same manufacturer as Saw".

I don't understand how that's any less prone to error than the other statement?

I'm proposing, for the... millionth time, that if the information "It's similar to Saw" was provided, it's not unreasonable to interpret that as "it's the same manufacturer but it's a different layout". If we were told that, that's what we'd potentially wrongly assume. If anyone vaguely in the know was told that, that's what they'd assume. If someone with no knowledge was told that, it's possibly what they'd assume. That's only one of many potential scenarios, providing an example of how the information could have ended up wrong.

I'm sorry, but people aren't blindly going "this bit is false so it must all be false". It's not unreasonable to go "well, part of it is blatantly wrong and we know it is wrong, we have no evidence any of it is right... So it wouldn't be surprising if that was wrong too." it's not as if the two elements are separate, they are both descriptions of the same. One is blatantly false, the other we are assuming to be right based on what I'd like to call "enthusiast logic" - that kind of logic produces assumptions like; Thorpe are getting a B&M flyer, Alton are getting a B&M Wing Rider, BGW are getting an Intamin Blitz coaster.

If it's NOT a Gerst, you'll never live it down... Furie. See, I have nothing to fear here, because no one takes what I say seriously anyway. So when I turn out to be wrong, no one will bat an eyelid.

Unless It's to do with the colour of the track, in which case... Yeah.

 

[furie]

Re: New "world-first" coaster at Alton Towers 2013

LOL!

I'm not being black and white. I'm just saying, the evidence says "most likely" a Gerstlauer. As I've been saying all along, as new evidence arrives, that will change. At the moment though, it's all we have.

What is black and white about that? It's massively flexible and requires no feats of imagination. It's just simple one document says "wrong stuff" and other says "this is what it is". One is wrong, both may be wrong or one may be right.

We only know for a fact that one is wrong. It doesn't lead logically that the other document is also wrong. It suggests there may be an error, but as they're two different documents, written at two different times possibly by two different people about two different elements then it's not much of a suggestion.

If the document had said "Gerstlauer" would we be having this discussion? I think we should have been, because one document is wrong so therefore the entire thing has to be put in doubt (according to the very black and white thinking going on around here )

If it's not a Gerstlauer, I will simply point out every post I've made which has always said "the current evidence points towards a Gerstlauer, and we have no other evidence it's anything else. Once we have other evidence, then we'll go with that". It's grey, until we have proof it's grey, black or white. There's no face lost when you're being completely open minded within the framework of evidence given.

Burden of proof isn't with me Joey, it's with you

 

[SaiyanHajime]

Re: New "world-first" coaster at Alton Towers 2013

What is black and white about that?

Nothing is black and white about that, but I didn't say that was black and white.

What's black and white is your understanding of my opinion here. I don't think this following quote from you at all, but you keep quoting it as if I do... "they made one error, so everything must therefore be erroneous."

We only know for a fact that one is wrong. It doesn't lead logically that the other document is also wrong. It suggests there may be an error, but as they're two different documents, written at two different times possibly by two different people about two different elements then it's not much of a suggestion.

You've mentioned these two articles a couple of times and I don't believe I've seen them. I only know of one... The noise report. So what else is there?

If the document had said "Gerstlauer" would we be having this discussion? I think we should have been, because one document is wrong so therefore the entire thing has to be put in doubt (according to the very black and white thinking going on around here )

We would, but not to the same extent. We'd be more focused on "there must be beyond vertical drop in the building then...."

If it's not a Gerstlauer, I will simply point out every post I've made which has always said "the current evidence points towards a Gerstlauer, and we have no other evidence it's anything else. Once we have other evidence, then we'll go with that". It's grey, until we have proof it's grey, black or white. There's no face lost when you're being completely open minded within the framework of evidence given.

I agree, so why every time someone makes so much as a suggestion it could be another manufacture do you keep shooting them down as if its definitely Gerst? You've done it countless times in this topic, in such a way as to imply anyone who believes it's not or has so much as a doubt is stupid.

Burden of proof isn't with me Joey, it's with you

I'm pretty sure it's not, given that...

* You're trying to prove a positive - that it IS Gerstlaurer, that requires proof, because until there is proof there is no known manufacturer.
* I'm not trying to prove it isn't, I'm just pointing out reasons why it might not be.
* You keep bringing it up.
* You are behaving as if you are certain.

 

[furie]

Re: New "world-first" coaster at Alton Towers 2013

Dammit, UC got in there with a better response first, but I typed this any in my own defense :lol:

What's black and white is your understanding of my opinion here. I don't think this following quote from you at all, but you keep quoting it as if I do... "they made one error, so everything must therefore be erroneous."

That's fine then, so you must therefore draw the same logical conclusions as me then?

You've mentioned these two articles a couple of times and I don't believe I've seen them. I only know of one... The noise report. So what else is there?

In the noise report and the covering letter. The covering letter states "based on a similar ride (SAW)". The noise report states "The Thorpe Park ride, “Saw” is the same type and manufacturer as the
proposed ride, including a “beyond vertical” drop.""

The ambiguity here is, does the "beyond vertical drop" bit relate to Saw, or this ride. It's not clear. So we have either a poor use of English or incorrect reference to part of the ride. If the English is bad, then nothing suggests this is anything other than Gerstlauer, the document must be seen as correct and accurate. If it's a mistake about the ride, then it's still not clear that they're wrong in saying it's the same type. It could also be that the ride has a hidden beyond vertical drop in the station

We would, but not to the same extent. We'd be more focused on "there must be beyond vertical drop in the building then...."

And why aren't we discussing this as an option rather than trying to shoe-horn in Intamin as a manufacturer. It makes more sense to look at this as the reason the document says "beyond vertical drop" than a mistake in saying "Same ride type and manufacturer" does it not?

I agree, so why every time someone makes so much as a suggestion it could be another manufacture do you keep shooting them down as if its definitely Gerst? You've done it countless times in this topic, in such a way as to imply anyone who believes it's not or has so much as a doubt is stupid.

No, not true. As soon as somebody says "the document said it had a beyond vertical drop so therefore it can't be Gerstlauer, so let's find somebody else" then I do it. Look back, how many times have a shot down somebody saying "it could be an X-Car"? Even the Intamin suggestion I don't have an issue with. If people have evidence beyond "the documentation is possibly wrong" then I'm fine and dandy. I welcome discussion that proves this to be something else. I've even had a look myself to see if I can work out how an Intamin would fit (it doesn't seem right to me, but I'm not an expert) which nobody suggesting it's an Intamin seems to have wanted to do. Nobody answered my question of "is the layout too tight for the winged X-Cars?" Lots of people suggesting it, nobody presenting any evidence why. I'd love it to be one of those, but what I want and what is possible are tow very different things.

I'm pretty sure it's not, given that...

* You're trying to prove a positive - that it IS Gerstlaurer, that requires proof, because until there is proof there is no known manufacturer.

Official document says "The Thorpe Park ride, “Saw” is the same type and manufacturer as the
proposed ride".

I have proof, written in an official document. I have my proof, so you need to disprove it

* I'm not trying to prove it isn't, I'm just pointing out reasons why it might not be.

Do better then

* You keep bringing it up.

Only when people say the document is wrong

* You are behaving as if you are certain.

I am certain that the document says it's the same coaster type and manufacturer. I'm not certain it's Gerstlauer, I am just certain of the current evidence. There a million miles difference between the two things.

 

[Martyn B]

Re: New "world-first" coaster at Alton Towers 2013

I dont want it to be Gerst, but I agree that what we know of so far kinda points towards Gerst.

One thing though, that really points this away from Gerst, is their capacity. Their 6/8 seater trains wouldn't be knowhere near enough for this coaster, at Alton Towers.

Though I guess it wouldn't take too much modification to couple together two of their 6 seater cars? So either Alton have lost the plot, Gerst are coming up with something new, or its MS

 

[furie]

Re: New "world-first" coaster at Alton Towers 2013

What's the capacity of Saw? Surely this must be at least equal to that?

 

[SaiyanHajime]

Re: New "world-first" coaster at Alton Towers 2013

Mummy says if you wish hard enough anything can happen.

That's why it's not Gerst. </3

In all seriousness though, it probably is. But I shall not be surprised if it's not. And I think the noise report is, well... Odd. I think the whole ride is a bit odd. That really is all there is to it.

 

[marc]

New "world-first" coaster at Alton Towers 2013

The thing is they don't need planning permission for that area for a ride but I think furie said they do for buildings?

So really the plans could just be a load of rubbish and the only part that really matters is the buildings and demo work?

Sue explained it on a fb post.

Once they have permission to build a coaster they can build what they want within that area.

The part they have to stick to is the height limit.

I might be wrong but I think that's what she was saying.

For 13 they used x/nwo as a sound level lol.

 

[Tomatron]

Re: New "world-first" coaster at Alton Towers 2013

Given that Alton Towers have some disapproving neighbours, the sound study will cover their backs, by using a ride which has had no complaints (as far as I'm aware) to it's background noise level.

 

[Idlewild]

New "world-first" coaster at Alton Towers 2013

According to Wikipedia, Saw is 1000 rph.

Rita is 1100 rph, and Th13teen is 1200 rph.

If you add the fact this thing has more blocks than a Minecraft game, I think you can easily make the case you could have something roughly equal to Rita/Th13teen.

saw has 5 blocks not counting the station/end brakes.(station-to-mcbr1, mcbr1-lift, lift, lift-to-mcbr2, mcbr2-station) and is pretty short.

This ride has 4 blocks not counting the station/end brakes and a possible pre lift section(looks short probably runs onto the first lift). (lift1, lift1-lift2, lift2, lift2-station). As the ride is longer than saw I think we are looking at a three possibly half-train opperation rather than say, 8 8 person cars like saw.

 

[Mike T]

Re: New "world-first" coaster at Alton Towers 2013

Not to mention there's a rumored pre-coaster dark ride portion too... which will significantly benefit capacity. One of the highest capacity attractions in the world (RotM USF) can achieve hourly counts of above 2400 persons per hour - with just half a mile of track. In fact, Mummy can cycle 11 trains at once - so who's to say this ride can't do something similar?

 

[Martyn B]

Re: New "world-first" coaster at Alton Towers 2013

Its not just about the amount of blocks, surely the the gaps between each block affects things? For example, Saw longest gap is from the lift, to the MCBR, which has 3 elements inbetween. Where as on this, between the first lift and second, there are 6 elements, then a further 6 on second section. So surely the amount of blocks in the final brake run is irrelevant as you can still only have 2 cars out on the outside track?

Now, this is just rough figures here, but it takes 1:15 from the top of the first lift to the final brake run (and that is judging by a pretty fast NL recreation, so clealrly not accurate). 75 seconds fits 48 times into 1 hour, and lets just say tis will have the 8 seater cars, thats 768pph (going by there only being the outside section).

Thats not going to be correct, I know, but it gives enough indication to show that the capacity will be awful it only has single cars.

 

[marc]

New "world-first" coaster at Alton Towers 2013

Well I hope they run it better than Oblivian as more than 2 trains you end up sitting on the brake run.