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iSpeed, Intamin LSM coaster for Mirabilandia in 2009

UC, I think you should understand there is a reason the people who work at Intamin are there instead of you.
 
No, they know what they're doing.


You, clearly, would not as you are totally over-simplifying the whole process. Do you not think Intamin take pride in what they build and want it to be the best they can make it? I thought you did something to do with engineering, I'd have thought you might have figured out you can't just change things willy-nilly?
 
UC said:
You, clearly, would not as you are totally over-simplifying the whole process.
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I would've thought that simply designing the ride properly in the first place would be a logical step - not an over-simplification?
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It's NOT as easy as just going "OMG, we'll build this over here and that there, and make that taller - job done, and no trims, lets go home"

Do you not think Intamin take pride in what they build and want it to be the best they can make it?
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That's interesting, coming from someone who's done nothing but crap all over HRRR and saying how "garbage" it's going to be and what a poor addition it is for the park...funny how hypocritical you can be when you just want to bash!

Gee, Ben, do you not think Universal know what they are doing?
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*sigh* Well done UC, you have once again bought in something totally unrelated for no apparent reason... Obviously Universal know what they're doing. As do Maurer. That doesn't mean I agree with the end result. It's different to me sitting there going "THEY SHOULDS HAZ MADE IT 300FT THAT WOULD BE DESIGNEDERZ PROBERLY", which is, essentially, what you are doing. HRRR is EXACTLY what they would have meant it to be. As is this. I don't disagree with you disagreeing with the trims, but telling them to redesign it when there will be a REASON it is designed the way it is? That's just illogical.

I thought you did something to do with engineering, I'd have thought you might have figured out you can't just change things willy-nilly?
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Of course. Which is why you design them properly in the first place, instead of designing them with lazy reminders of poor planning in the midst of the layout.

Form follows function. A basic engineering phrase. In the case of a ride like this - which has been designed with stats and pretty numbers put far ahead of the actual ride experience - form clearly does not follow function.
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It's not lazy. The park wanted some stats, but, either didn't have the space or the money to continue at that speed. Would you rather they just put it into the final brakes and ended the ride after the top hat? Be glad they built a layout at all! They could have easily just given us a Stealth! But, no, they built a layout. And because it has a trim and so is "designed wrong" according to some jackass on an internet forum, that's SO wrong?

Working within your limits is not lazy. It's working within your limits. I don't see how you can logically say that's incorrect?
 
http://www.mirabilandia.it/#/contattaci_eng/

Here, their contact page. Ask them yourself. Assuming they speak English, I think UC may be able to word a letter in such a way that they send us the relevant information on the design process (and if they don't want to tell the first time, reply with counter-arguments until they do). I think you all know where we can find Intamin in case Mira' doesn't know. If not, it's here:
http://www.intaminworldwide.com/iag/ind ... &Itemid=36
or
http://www.intaminworldwide.com/iag/ind ... &Itemid=51

The best way to end this argument, I think, but perhaps not the easiest. It's quite unlikely that they will answer, but it's better to give it a try than to keep arguing.
 
Latest update from Parksmania.it. Rough Italian - English translation and some new photos of the station, train front end and controls.

The intense activities that will carry to the inauguration of " iSpeed" they proceed intensely. The roof of the station has been completed, now the red one dominates completely the zone, the trains pauses on the railroads waiting for the first tests and, soon, the fairing will be mounted on the cars in order then to be embellished thanks to the typical decorations of a bolide from Formula One. Also inside of what it will be the heart of " iSpeed" it is worked without pauses and today it has been mounted one of the more symbolic elements from the technical point of view: the control console.
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http://www.parksmania.it/parco_news.php?pid=2&nid=4085
 
UC said:
1. What? I'm stating my opinion on this, and apparently people don't agree with me. So, given that people responded to MY viewpoint...I'm the one creating arguments - merely defending my point of view from the attacks.

2. I never said it wouldn't be a great ride. My complaint with these comments rests with the design laziness and the building of a ride based on stats, instead of overall ride experience.
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1- So you're telling me you don't get any satisfaction from arguing with other posters on here? Haha, can't fool me mister! In truth none of this is really an argument, we're just speculating on the design of iSpeed.

2- I never said you said it wouldn't be a great ride. I understand you think the inclusion of trims is lazy and that their presence points toward iSpeed being built around stats which you also think is lame. My outlook is this,- Hey it's got trims 'cause it's prob built around stats.
It's not the end of the world, I reckon it should still pack a decent punch.

UC said:
Move the immelman. Build an Immelman with a different shape.

You're not going to sit here and argue to me that out of the plot of land that Intamin was given to work with, that was ONLY spot that an immelman would fit.
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No you're right I'm not going to argue that point because I don't believe that, but it is what it is.
It's how they have built it.
Get over it.

UC said:
Hell, looking at the trim brakes, it's clear that it probably shouldn't have "fit" there in the first place. It obviously can't be built to properly accomidate the ride speed.
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Could be, could be that the immelman is part of the reason behind the trims.

UC said:
Crucial difference, and had you been keeping up with the topic, you would have noted that this has been said numerous times:

1. Many B&Ms with trim brakes have been retrofitted over time. For example, Montu and Mantis did not open with trim brakes.

2. B&M trim brakes are ADJUSTABLE. They can be set to trim only if a certain speed is reached. This is far more acceptable a practice, as it is in place to prevent overspeeding, not kill the speed of the train every time.

Permanently-affixed magnetic brakes, however, cannot be adjusted. They will always trim speed off of every train, REGARDLESS of the train's speed when hitting the trim.
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I am quite aware of the differences between B&M and Intamin trims.

Had you been less concerned with trying to sound like a smartass, perhaps you would have not failed to grasp the simplicity of my response to zcl about trims on B&M coasters and B&M’s supposed ‘perfection’.

My point being- B&M coasters DO have trim breaks. In most cases it is because the park has requested the trims to make the coaster milder, but the reason behind the trims is irrelevant as is the fact that they can be adjusted. Point being there are B&M’s out there in theme park world with trims and this represents some degree of compromise in their design. Therefore, the coaster design is NOT perfect.

Perhaps a slightly over analytical critique of zcl’s use of language, I’ll give you that.
But hey, don’t use the word perfection unless that thing is universally perfect.


:wink:
 
Ben said:
It's not lazy. The park wanted some stats, but, either didn't have the space or the money to continue at that speed. Would you rather they just put it into the final brakes and ended the ride after the top hat? Be glad they built a layout at all! They could have easily just given us a Stealth! But, no, they built a layout. And because it has a trim and so is "designed wrong" according to some jackass on an internet forum, that's SO wrong?

Working within your limits is not lazy. It's working within your limits. I don't see how you can logically say that's incorrect?
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QFT.
 
Coaster-Fiend said:
zcl said:
I was speaking more on the situation of a client requesting something unusual and the company making accomodations.

B&M would never do something like what Intamin just did. Then again, that's usually the difference between B&M and Intamin, risk and perfection.
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There's plenty of B&M's out there with trim brakes, and there's plenty of B&M's out there which are a long way from perfect. Any ride manufacturer that did not accommodate to a park's ride design requests wouldn't be around too long.

To conclude, I would say your idealized view of B&M is somewhat off the mark.
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If you can find a B&M trim that is as out of place as this one, I'd be more than welcome.
 
So does the MCBR count as a station fly-by? :razz:

Interesting station design, though not something I would immediately call appealing.
 
UC said:
The ride should've been designed to account for the forces in the first place - not just left to laziness and a trim to do.

Rides go through many design phases, and multiple layouts, before they're settled on. Why there was not a layout without a trim that worked...shows laziness and lack of creativity, in my opinion.
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You're simply wrong, and demonstrate you have no idea what other factors come into designing a coaster, but, whatever, you think that.

Classic Ben. I point out hypocrisy, and the fact you change your viewpoints for the sake of the argument you're currently in, and you attempt (poorly) to divert attention away from it.

Since you want to play semantics, where did I tell them to do anything? I stated the ride should've been designed to remove the trims in the first place. I don't believe I placed any phone calls about the situation...
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You didn't ring them up, no, but, probably only because you don't speak Italian.

To point out more hypocrisy...I will also mention these quotes from you where you essentially did the same thing in the HRRR topic:
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Well done UC! You managed to pick quotes where I do nothing of the same! WELL DONE!

See how hypocritical you are?
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No. Because saying I think it should be a different type of coaster is VERY different to pretending I'm better at designing them than those who build them. Very different. So, sorry you wasted what can loosely be called your life looking up quotes with absolutley no relevancy just because you've realised what everyone is telling you is correct!

Essentially...you've proven that you flip your own logic for the sake of an argument...which means that your statements in this topic are basically garbage to begin with.
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Well, no, you like to pretend I do and grab a few quotes from the air and then pretend they fit with what you're saying. For a second time - saying I think a coaster should have been another type is VERY different to saying they should remove trims and do things with the layout way beyond the money and space they have. VERY different.

expressing my opinion on the ride and what I feel to be laziness on the part of design is causing you to get so defensive about iSpeed.

I think the trim demonstrates laziness, and you're not going to justify that the ride couldn't have been designed in a way that eliminated that. And if you wanted stats? Well, that's even more unfortunate. Causing a ride to be designed for stats instead of ride experience...it's a shame.

Although this is more hypocrisy from yourself...much like the way you ripped HRRR for having so many MCBRs, even though it's clear the park did it to increase capacity on the coaster so that you wait in line less.

But no - you justified this to yourself as opinion - just as this was my opinion.

So what is it, Ben? Are we both allowed to have an opinion, or are you just as much a "know-it-all jackass wannabe" as you claim I am?
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The difference is whilst I think the MCBRs on HRRR are excessive, I actually SEE that they're there for a reason. You seem so blind to the reasons this is trimmed that you just won't accept them.

Because there's no way this was the only possible layout for this ride. Thus, I see it as them going with the laziest solution for their limits, instead of doing it in a creative way (not expensive - creative. There IS a difference) - that could've showcased a properly designed ride AND the park requirements.
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They could have designed a ride properly in park requirements - it would have been Stealth. I'm very willing to bet they we offered a simple up and down coaster, with maybe a turn or two. And they then wanted a layout. But, they had to trim it so it wasn't too expensive. And then you complain! You complain they've given us MORE and a rather lengthy layout JUST because they had to use trims? Personally, I'd take a lengthy layout over one that's faster but a lot, lot, lot shorter.

Get a grip, get your head out from where it is currently placed, and actually read what people say to you next time. Because at the amount all you're doing is squealing like a pig and making everyone's day longer.
 
UC said:
However, the B&Ms are designed with trims to be a FAILSAFE solution. They stop OVERspeeding.

Ideally, the B&M coaster - though built with trims - will not need them. The Intamin coaster, built with trims, will need them every circuit.

Thus, my point. Intamin's use of them comes across as laziness, whereas the use of them in B&M coasters is simply a prevention mechanism.
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Although your theory does make a lot of sense, ultimately I haven't found this to be the case.

Superman at Parque Warner Madrid has a trim in the latter half of the ride, and it trims the thing to death on every single circuit. To put it bluntly, there are no exciting forces going on after that trim (and to be honest the ride as a whole). So clearly in this case the trim isn't there to prevent 'overspeeding' as such, unless its just constantly overspeeding by a large margin - which is essentially same thing as a permanent trim at the end of the day.

So I'm unsure. Maybe this coaster is just a complete one-off. All I can say is that trims suck in general, and there's probably no two ways about it.

I do agree that Intamin's system is laziness, but I have to say that B&M's annoys me far more. It's all part of their evil scheme to further control the forces of their rides till there's no excitement left at all, and that's just wrong. Rides should be reckless and exciting, they should be scary, and if they go round the track a bit faster in the evenings or in the rain, just let it be.
 
I do agree that Intamin's system is laziness, but I have to say that B&M's annoys me far more. It's all part of their evil scheme to further control the forces of their rides till there's no excitement left at all, and that's just wrong. Rides should be reckless and exciting, they should be scary, and if they go round the track a bit faster in the evenings or in the rain, just let it be.
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You, my friend, are a saint.
 
Glad that's settled then. I'd recommend an overtrimming topic, or PM's from now on (i.e. any further arguing about this will be deleted) :)

[edit]I like this last post deletion game for people being childish. I could play it all day.
 
Wow! That was a huge post! I'd feel gutted about not reading the above post and having it all deleted!!!

Ah well, life goes on - furie cool)
 
^Lol

I think the ride's looking good, but not amazing. For some reason, from looking at pictures of this ride and the parks other rides, It doesn't seem to fit the park very well. The rest the park has a magical look, whereas this seems to have a more hi-tech futuristic theme.
 
Well, they took out all the trims, except one or two fins on the first camelback...
It is said, that it will stay this way, unless the tests show that the ride is too intense.

Btw, tha testing is supposed to start this week. :D
 
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