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WTF Merlin?

So Merlin asked for the Hex plans back but not the Nemesis ones? I suppose this thread is named so for a reason!

2016-The Scrapheap year.
 
Bit sad about Skyway... It was always closed whenever I tried to ride it in the past few years. Literally can't remember when I last had the chance.

It'll just sit there for an eternity, though.

Merlin demanding the Hex plans be returned is weird... Maybe that isn't entirely true...? Like, what's stopping the seller from just ignoring their demands or saying lol no **** off?
 
Joey said:
Rides such as Hex, The Haunting, Sub-Terra NEED those pre-show rooms/scenes though or they fundamentally won't work. They're narrative builders to create an immersive experience (which is what those rides are, and nothing more), so if you don't put them in, you leave guests even more confused about what the **** has just happened...
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I kind of not really sometimes fundamentally disagree with your post but not entirely so bare with me whilst I try and explain.

This isn't black and white and there are exceptions, but I think if you have to put guests in front of a screen to tell them crucial information about how to board a ride, or to tell them the story because without it it just wont make sense, you're doing something wrong.

Some attractions do have complicated boarding, but arguably all of that is bad design... Either at the hands of the manufacturer of the hardware itself. Or more often, of those who designed the boarding area of a ride. Sub Terra is a messy one and I think they done a very good job considering, but just for argument's sake look aaaat, say, Zufari's **** disaster of loading area. Gates don't align with rows. Rows are poorly numbered. There's a distance not unlike crossing the Kalimari to get from the bays to the truck and a plethora of other issues plaguing a swift onload. Staff and videos or other preshow-like elements CAN aid these issues, but they arguably shouldn't have to. It should be obvious where you're going and what you're doing, regardless of whether you were paying attention.

Similarly, themed entertainment differs from other forms of entertainment because it's an entire immersive thing. I don't want to watch a **** screen, I want the environment itself to tell a story. Screens should be there as extras - like Hex's queue-line videos - not crucial pieces of information - like Hex's pre-show video. Though actually, I personally like Hex preshow video AND I think if you removed it and the octogon room, Hex really wouldn't suffer that greatly and I think to some members of the GP it may be improved, even. Yeah we might wonder why there's a log in the middle of the room, but Hex is a RIDE and it's core entertainment is the spectacle of how the hell did the room spin, not from it's narrative. Hex's queue, and general setting, even devoid of the actual pre-SHOWS tells enough of a story to make it work. You're going into this gloomy old castle, you go through a secret passage, and you end up in a creepy room that does creepy ****. That's ALL we NEED to know, really.

I'm not saying Hex would be better without preshows, I'm just saying this idea that preshows NEED to exist to explain stuff is ... Well it's lazy, in a way. And it's also misunderstanding the British audience who just doesn't really want them getting in the way of their rides.

Preshows that are done well are fab, but even the best suffer from being operationally inconsistent... I've witnessed what happens when you get a backlog on Haunted Mansion and it's the stuff of nightmares. You come out the stretching room into a sea of people... Queue-jumper anxiety breaks in and everyone cramps up close. A similar thing happens after the lifts on Gringotts. Even the pros of the industry don't seem to understand this fundamental stuff and it blows my mind.
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That's fair enough but your post states a lot about what you want and what you prefer, but, the vast majority of the general public won't actually take on board the effects of a given environment as the narrative of a ride - they need to be told it, or watch it, it's a fact. I know it's different, but - I've experienced this firsthand with attractions that I've managed and designed (I'm not meaning scare so don't try and bring that up, I'm talking actual visitor attractions that I have NDA's with), but the guests didn't understand what was going on when it first opened, it was lost. With the addition of a pre show room with a narrative layover by a performer, they got it and the guest satisfaction rating soared after it.

I'm not talking about all of this as my opinion, well, I am, but I have actually experienced it in person in a working capacity.


Sent from my iPhone 6 using Tapatalk.
 
The Skyway news is a real shame. The last few years we have always made time to have a ride. It's 5 minutes of relaxation in a hectic day which provided a nice overview of the park, and it's one of the better rides for really little ones like my little girl.
 
Lofty said:
Joey said:
Rides such as Hex, The Haunting, Sub-Terra NEED those pre-show rooms/scenes though or they fundamentally won't work. They're narrative builders to create an immersive experience (which is what those rides are, and nothing more), so if you don't put them in, you leave guests even more confused about what the **** has just happened...
Click to expand...
I kind of not really sometimes fundamentally disagree with your post but not entirely so bare with me whilst I try and explain.

This isn't black and white and there are exceptions, but I think if you have to put guests in front of a screen to tell them crucial information about how to board a ride, or to tell them the story because without it it just wont make sense, you're doing something wrong.

Some attractions do have complicated boarding, but arguably all of that is bad design... Either at the hands of the manufacturer of the hardware itself. Or more often, of those who designed the boarding area of a ride. Sub Terra is a messy one and I think they done a very good job considering, but just for argument's sake look aaaat, say, Zufari's **** disaster of loading area. Gates don't align with rows. Rows are poorly numbered. There's a distance not unlike crossing the Kalimari to get from the bays to the truck and a plethora of other issues plaguing a swift onload. Staff and videos or other preshow-like elements CAN aid these issues, but they arguably shouldn't have to. It should be obvious where you're going and what you're doing, regardless of whether you were paying attention.

Similarly, themed entertainment differs from other forms of entertainment because it's an entire immersive thing. I don't want to watch a **** screen, I want the environment itself to tell a story. Screens should be there as extras - like Hex's queue-line videos - not crucial pieces of information - like Hex's pre-show video. Though actually, I personally like Hex preshow video AND I think if you removed it and the octogon room, Hex really wouldn't suffer that greatly and I think to some members of the GP it may be improved, even. Yeah we might wonder why there's a log in the middle of the room, but Hex is a RIDE and it's core entertainment is the spectacle of how the hell did the room spin, not from it's narrative. Hex's queue, and general setting, even devoid of the actual pre-SHOWS tells enough of a story to make it work. You're going into this gloomy old castle, you go through a secret passage, and you end up in a creepy room that does creepy ****. That's ALL we NEED to know, really.

I'm not saying Hex would be better without preshows, I'm just saying this idea that preshows NEED to exist to explain stuff is ... Well it's lazy, in a way. And it's also misunderstanding the British audience who just doesn't really want them getting in the way of their rides.

Preshows that are done well are fab, but even the best suffer from being operationally inconsistent... I've witnessed what happens when you get a backlog on Haunted Mansion and it's the stuff of nightmares. You come out the stretching room into a sea of people... Queue-jumper anxiety breaks in and everyone cramps up close. A similar thing happens after the lifts on Gringotts. Even the pros of the industry don't seem to understand this fundamental stuff and it blows my mind.
Click to expand...
That's fair enough but your post states a lot about what you want and what you prefer, but, the vast majority of the general public won't actually take on board the effects of a given environment as the narrative of a ride - they need to be told it, or watch it, it's a fact. I know it's different, but - I've experienced this firsthand with attractions that I've managed and designed (I'm not meaning scare so don't try and bring that up, I'm talking actual visitor attractions that I have NDA's with), but the guests didn't understand what was going on when it first opened, it was lost. With the addition of a pre show room with a narrative layover by a performer, they got it and the guest satisfaction rating soared after it.

I'm not talking about all of this as my opinion, well, I am, but I have actually experienced it in person in a working capacity.

Sent from my iPhone 6 using Tapatalk.
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With all due respect, as you said, it really is different. Theme parks and rides hold very, VERY different expectations from guests than other kinds of attractions. That's what I'm talking about here...

Joey said:
...only rides - actual rides - are deemed worth the time of most guests. And more interestingly, any perceived delay to them getting on the ride is an annoyance to a large percentage of people. It doesn't matter if there is no actual delay, people THINK a pre show is holding them up, people THINK staff talking to them or batching them through are holding them up. In reality, these are meant to be distractions or throughout maximizers. But people just feel like staff are wasting their time, like as if the ride ahead is just waiting for them empty.
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It's why Disney's Animal Kingdom, and Chessington for that matter, have issues with guests perceiving them as "just a zoo". Rides are a completely different ball game to all other kinds of attractions, and roller coasters are further up the scale of "value" to average theme park visitors... These are from my own observations of guests in situ, the things they say and do, these aren't personal preferences, I've "experienced it in person in a working capacity."

There's this mentality that is bread amongst professionals of how things should be done, of outdated teaching and ideas... and of, ironically, this necessity to innovate. I believe in putting aside ones own brain for a moment and actually looking at the product through the intended audience's eyes. That's not entirely possible, but look at Robbie's post here...

Robbie said:
I think part of the problem with the first section was that people weren't quite sure what was going on and were too busy looking around and trying to take it in to pay attention to the mad scientist guy.

It did indeed slow down the whole attraction as people were dawdling. Maybe it was just the day I saw it, but I got the impression my fellow guests just wanted a ride and were confused by all the other stuff. Just like they are on Sub-Terra, actually.
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This is the kind of stuff professionals need to take notice in. If an attraction like Hex doesn't work without the pre shows (I disagree, I don't think everything needs an explanation and there's plenty of theme park attractions out there that don't explain **** and are enjoyed), then professionals who design attractions need to question whether attractions like Hex are a good idea.

The problem is that despite Hex being a pain to market, despite it not doing so well for years, despite all it's problems... They made a very similar style of attraction in Sub Terra. And yet, they won't give us a woodie because it's "hard to market" or whatever crap.

Designers in all mediums know that certain ideas are more likely to be greenlit than others, and professionals get caught up in concepts that sound good. Stuff like VR... Stuff like winged seating. The people that are being pitched toare so caught up in the "professional" mindset that they cannot see they're looking at crap.

I'm not saying this is you btw, I'm just saying that this idea that fans don't have a good grasp of whats what needs to go awaaaay.
 
But, with all due respect, I've been involved in the design process of rides that have pre shows Joey, so I'm actually correct in what I'm saying. I'm not allowed to openly state what I've been involved with (you know how much NDA's are bastards ;) ), or I would state it. The fact of the matter is - pre shows do work for attractions that need them to convey an intricate narrative layover.

Unless, of course, you're stating that the use of a pre show is by the means of a bad designer?

At the end of the day, Joey, your opinion just differs from other people's and that's all fine, but stating it as fact is where I have a slight problem with it as it becomes derogatory towards other people on the website, some of which might have a better working knowledge of what your opinion states otherwise.
 
Just to give this a bit of perspective, and Sub Terra is a good example.

When ST first opened, it was trashed by everyone. I was stood there for quite a while where staff were interviewing guests after riding asking what they thought. The majority opinion was disappointment.

A few things changed afterwards, but the most significant things was a pre-show video and the post lift "maze".

The pre-show video doesn't really add any time to the dispatch of the ride. It just means that while one group is riding, another in the lift you have a third group getting pre-show background instead of just being stood in a queue.

I don't know if the ride was ever a hit, but after those changes there was a marked difference in the reactions of guests leaving. Smiles rather than frowns - it was very visible.

If we look at Hex, it's pretty much the same now. You have one set of guests riding, one in the Octagon Room, one in the video room and one in the first batch area.

It's very rare that the ride runs at less than full capacity. So there are always 3xride capacity waiting to get on it from the initial batching area. Remove the pre-shows and that number of people would just be stood in a queue instead. The pre-shows are all about the same length (now) as the main ride. So it doesn't hold anyone up.

I know that Joey will say that it's perceived as holding guests up - and I agree. We all know people who get angry in a 2 hour queue that you've not moved into the 6 foot gap recently left, despite there being another half mile of queue to get around.

However, it's got to be better to still add in that extra diversion than to have a longer, dull queue. 20 minutes over three pre-shows or 20 minutes staring at the back of the person in front?

I think as long as the pre-show is informative and well done and doesn't actually cause a real delay then it's not an issue and is preferable. It may not be perceived by all guests as such, but it's still better than additional "dead" queueing times.
 
Lofty said:
But, with all due respect, I've been involved in the design process of rides that have pre shows Joey, so I'm actually correct in what I'm saying. I'm not allowed to openly state what I've been involved with (you know how much NDA's are bastards ;) ), or I would state it. The fact of the matter is - pre shows do work for attractions that need them to convey an intricate narrative layover.

Unless, of course, you're stating that the use of a pre show is by the means of a bad designer?

At the end of the day, Joey, your opinion just differs from other people's and that's all fine, but stating it as fact is where I have a slight problem with it as it becomes derogatory towards other people on the website, some of which might have a better working knowledge of what your opinion states otherwise.
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Okay, I'm no more stating opinion as fact than you or anyone else and I'm really getting tired of being told that I am, because it's just derailment to undermine my point. The issue you, and others, have with what I say is that it's kinda off the wall at times and it's often theoretical maybes mistaken as absolutes, and I guess that's FINE because that's my problem with how I conduct myself. It's very, very rare that anything I say is black and white and yet most people take it as such, because that's just the nature of text. But to me, it's pointless having a discussion unless I'm going to explore an idea and learn something from my own waffling, and the challenges presented by others. So, ya know, that. But...

Since, apparently, I can't have a valid point unless this is disclosed... I too have worked in the design process of rides that have pre shows Lofty. I just don't think that's relevant, at all. In this specific example, my working knowledge that comes from working with the audience itself is more informative... All you've done is keep telling me you're right because you know you are, affectively. Well, I take issue with that. I want you to explain why, cuz I want to learn something from another person's perspective.

Pre shows are not always bad design, but they're often there to fix it, or shoehorned in where they're not appropriate. I've said that and explained why I think that a couple of times, and you're free to disagree. I disagree that Hex would be terrible without it's 2 preshows, I don't think it needs them because I don't agree that we need to know the story, or even that there needs to be a story, for the attraction to work. And I've explained why I think that. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect others to do the same.

Furie's post above is interesting because he's providing evidence that Sub Terra's preshow is necessary. Ya know, that's the kind of **** I like to read here. My number one interest is guest psychology because it's so illusive.

Anyway...

I think as long as the pre-show is informative and well done and doesn't actually cause a real delay then it's not an issue and is preferable. It may not be perceived by all guests as such, but it's still better than additional "dead" queueing times.
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Yes, in general yes, I don't think anyone would disagree. But I think Spiderman style "pre shows" that are more queue-shows that are not force fed to guests, not masquerading as part of the main event, but rather as a queue-enhacement, are usually a better idea. A recent Merlin example of a absolutely diabolical pre-show was Zufari's. I say was, because now it's a queue-show. And despite the actors best efforts to keep people in there, most guests (me included) just walk straight through because they came to a theme park to go on rides. I'm glas it's gone on a personal level, but it also was a major queue-anxiety creator... Even on Hex, where it doesn't matter if someone pushes in front because you're all on the same cycle, most guests don't know that and I've witnessed arguments between guests because of it. No pre show keeps guests in their original order, and that's a HUGE irritant for guests. The bunching up that occurs in wide queues, the stress when someone stops at a shop in the middle of a queue... All this crap is avoidable, unnecessary stress to a guests' day. And, sorry to do a Lofty here, but unless you've witnessed that day after day through the hot summer months, you probably don't realise how awful it is.
 
That's fair enough and a lot of the issues arise by the misinterpretation of online text than tones of voice etc etc but a lot of the time it comes across as the stating of fact as opposed to 'I've found that' or 'I think that'. Let's be honest here and say that you pick elements of my posts to debate as much as I pick on your posts to debate. We just have completely different views and beliefs on what works and what doesn't - yet there's evidence on both sides of both popular and unpopular attractions to debate either of our views.

You're trying to put an end to these forms of discussions and saying that people are derailing you and undermining you then you write "Sorry to do a Lofty here", it's just ridiculous, if I'd have said "I'm going to do a Joey" and post a huge essay about my opinions of how I'm right, no matter what discussion is happening from people around me, you'd have gone mad. So just call an end to it because frankly, it's becoming **** boring. We aren't going to agree and that's that.

I've found in that the rides/immersive experiences I've been involved in over the past 7 years, that pre shows work perfectly to deliver narrative in a concentrated form to the masses and that the guests' enjoyment level and understanding was higher. This also includes one attraction that opened without one, then I was drafted in to design one for them and saw the benefits after it (similar case to Sub Terra, but reverse).


Sent from my iPhone 6 using Tapatalk.
 
I do think pre-shows work, but Merlin aren't very good at them and I'm not sure Alton Towers is the place to do them. 90% of Alton's attractions nowadays involve a winding queue line then straight onto a ride, and something like Hex confuses people. There's also the fact that whereas Disney (say) wait until everyone's in the room before starting, Merlin have films going as you walk in and this is a crucial difference - I honestly think a lot of people don't realise that film that's running is telling a story or making a point about loading. It's about pace and often Merlin just dump you in a room with no explanation.

Beyond AT, look at the Merlin Tower at Warwick - it was entirely pre-show! Two rooms building to a climax that wasn't there. At Blackpool Tower the 4D film is no longer 4D and is just treated as a place they put you while the next lift is coming down. With these experiences it's no wonder the General Public get confused.
 
Robbie said:
I do think pre-shows work, but Merlin aren't very good at them and I'm not sure Alton Towers is the place to do them. 90% of Alton's attractions nowadays involve a winding queue line then straight onto a ride, and something like Hex confuses people. There's also the fact that whereas Disney (say) wait until everyone's in the room before starting, Merlin have films going as you walk in and this is a crucial difference - I honestly think a lot of people don't realise that film that's running is telling a story or making a point about loading. It's about pace and often Merlin just dump you in a room with no explanation.

Beyond AT, look at the Merlin Tower at Warwick - it was entirely pre-show! Two rooms building to a climax that wasn't there. At Blackpool Tower the 4D film is no longer 4D and is just treated as a place they put you while the next lift is coming down. With these experiences it's no wonder the General Public get confused.
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Erm what? I was littarly in the Blackpool Tower yesterday and the 4D film was great, it's not meant to be a pre-show. It's just so you don't have a large line of people waiting for the lifts. And it definitely isn't a holding area, it was 100% a 4D short film/clip.
 
owentaylor121 said:
Erm what? I was littarly in the Blackpool Tower yesterday and the 4D film was great, it's not meant to be a pre-show. It's just so you don't have a large line of people waiting for the lifts. And it definitely isn't a holding area, it was 100% a 4D short film/clip.
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That's good and how it should be. Went during the Illuminations and it was a 2D film and the staff couldn't get us through quick enough, with the words "you'll be able to go up the Tower in a few minutes but first you have to watch this short film."
 
Robbie said:
owentaylor121 said:
Erm what? I was littarly in the Blackpool Tower yesterday and the 4D film was great, it's not meant to be a pre-show. It's just so you don't have a large line of people waiting for the lifts. And it definitely isn't a holding area, it was 100% a 4D short film/clip.
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That's good and how it should be. Went during the Illuminations and it was a 2D film and the staff couldn't get us through quick enough, with the words "you'll be able to go up the Tower in a few minutes but first you have to watch this short film."
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That's a shame you didn't get to see the film, as it's rather good but I can see how on busy days it would be a problem.
 
owentaylor121 said:
Robbie said:
owentaylor121 said:
Erm what? I was littarly in the Blackpool Tower yesterday and the 4D film was great, it's not meant to be a pre-show. It's just so you don't have a large line of people waiting for the lifts. And it definitely isn't a holding area, it was 100% a 4D short film/clip.
Click to expand...
That's good and how it should be. Went during the Illuminations and it was a 2D film and the staff couldn't get us through quick enough, with the words "you'll be able to go up the Tower in a few minutes but first you have to watch this short film."
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That's a shame you didn't get to see the film, as it's rather good but I can see how on busy days it would be a problem.
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Sorry, to be clear - we saw the film, but it was in 2D and without the effects, and there was only 6 of us. I've seen it a few times before but never with such half-hearted can't-be-arsed disdain from the staff as on that day. Thinking about it, it was the Gift Shop that they kept trying to direct everyone to.
 
Alton Towers will close for 21 days on Tues and Weds during the quietest time of the year. Makes sense. There's no point spending time and money trying to sail a ship when there's no wind. However, I'm sure a few people will be OUTRAGED.
 
Maybe it's a CONSPIRACY or something. The accident happened on a Tuesday so if they close on a Tuesday, an accident will never, ever happen again. Also, merch sales are probably low on those days and its no coincidence that Alton Towers is an anagram of "slower on tat". And Alton Towers has a grassy mound. And I once saw a mysterious white Fiat Uno in the car park. Forget about the valid commercial reasons, it's all one big CONSPIRACY.
 
Most parks round the World do it it makes sense.

There was an AMAZING bit of OUTRAGE from someone who lives nearby who can't now go on the quiet days.

He's retired and apparently sits at home waiting to see what the lines are like and goes if it's quiet.

He also apparently goes more than 100 times a year.

It was FAB.
 
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